To be fair Andy many werre saying Ali should'nt of been retained for this year as he was injury prone and past it and he certainly has'nt avoided his critics.

Again with the words in my mouth.

I know you're probably at a loose end and looking for an argument to fill your afternoon, but I have no comments to make on the accuracy or otherwise of the criticism Kirke has received on here - in much the same way as your earlier post set out your attitude to the criticism of Senior.

All I am saying is that other equally senior members of the playing squad have also performed at a level below what I would consider acceptable in 2011, without attracting anything like the same frequency or depth of criticism.

Why? Who knows - maybe some people have agendas they think they need to justify?

And where have those critics of his retention been when it comes to analysing his 2011 performances? Too busy sharpening their axes to aim at other, easier targets?

You'd have to ask them mate.
He's been far from his best imo but i don't think he's been awful either and certainly others like Kirke and Senior have been greater disappointments imo.
Other posters have also highlighted their thoughts on Burrow ,Webb ,Cross and Watkins etc etc so it's not as though people are targeting those perceived as easier to criticise.
Also kirke has been credited when it's been warranted aswell which shows a balanced view does it not?

So, to be clear, you agree that analysis of other player's displays, adds little or no value to any criticism or Kirke?

I wonder how much of the board you read because there's few players I can think of that haven't been criticised this year, some justly, others not so in my opinion.

If Kirke receives a greater frequency or depth of criticism then, perhaps it's warranted.

Of course, if it isn't I'd be interested to hear why. So far all I've heard is "he's cheap" and "other players are rubbish too". Hardly overwhelming rebuttal.

Oh and now we have the rather trite, "it's just an agenda". If you can't forumlate a counter argument we can always trot that one out. Of course, they would be completely missing the two games where Kirke has played well this year and received praise from me.

Don't be silly. It's an unfair agenda to point out 4 carries in a game is unacceptable from one of your most experienced forwards. Just ask Mrs Kirke, sorry, Wilko.

I agree with all of that.

I think enough is enough. If its got to the point that Ian Kirke is a scape goat then these people must accept whole sale changes must follow.

If in the context of this debate kirke's ability as a player and the probable amount of cap space he takes up are used as a variable then there are marquee players who our squad/cap structure revolve around who are simply not doing the job they are paid to do. That's why they take a bigger share at the top end of the cap.

Its not unrealistic to presume Kirke is noway a top earner at Leeds.

The buck stops well before Kirke!

people need to look else where for blame. Those who can't are simply blinkered to the harsh truth.

Ali, senior, burrow, Webb, cross , sinfield, smith, Hauraki, Jjb, Watkins, bjb before his injury! all these guys are at fault for our $hite defence and our inability to do the basics well.

Respect possession
Complete sets
Good kick
Good kick chase
Look for repeat set
defend as a unit
Good Communicate
No errors/penalties in own 40
No penalties when we have the ball.
Complete first set after kick off/scoring

All school boy stuff that people with more talent and bigger wages than kirke are to blame for.

Are some of our fans that unwilling to accept the truth that bashing Kirke is the only distraction they get from facing the real issues with our team

Sorry mate your right I didn't address that question, I would much rather see singleton, ambler, Amor and Pitts be fighting it our for places before cross was brought in and before Kirke. I agree with that.

I'm just at a loss how Kirke can cop it when genuine key Marquee players in key positions are useless despite their best efforts

What makes you think that comment was aimed specifically at you Gareth?

I would suggest you can accuse me of many things, but not being able to formulate a counter argument wouldn't be one of them.

I'll cut through the fog and set out exactly what I believe for you shall I, just to counter that accusation.

A number of players have performed at an unacceptable level so far this season. With me so far?

Some of those have attracted criticism in varying degrees from different people. Agreed?

Some of that criticism has been countered by others, offering reasons - call them excuses if you like - for their performances (still finding their feet at this level, being asked to play out of position, the pack isn't going forward and laying a platform etc). Hard to disagree with this one, given it's something you've done yourself is it not?

In terms of frequency and weight of criticism, balanced by any positive comments on elements of their performance, Ian Kirke has copped for more than anyone else of the current squad on here. I've not done a tvoc-style analysis or word count, but based purely on the anecdotal evidence of what I see that's my opinion. Whether you believe that criticism to be justified or not, would you agree that is the case?

Wilko has suggested we should be expecting more from those players who are taking more out of the club. Would you agree with that in principle?

Assuming you do, have Ian Kirke's performances fallen that much further short of what should be expected of him than anyone else in the squad?

Ah your 2 favourit subjects! Burrow can do no wrong. Buderus was a mistake and will never be fit to lace discos boots

Yeah that's it. thats totally what I ment it took me 5 posts to say what you said in one, but thanks again.

Very well put. I'll answer the final question by saying yes, in my opinion they have.

As I say, he's a very experienced forward. In the absence of other, better, experienced forwards he needed to step up and carry the pack, for his own career progression as well as the benefit of the team. He responded with two games where he carried the ball 4 times. Compare and contrast with what young, and cheap, Singleton, did in 20 mins.

Other players have fallen short of what I would expect. Ali has. Then again, I don't understand why he isn't being used from the bench. Cross and Hauraki have but as they're 6 games into their Leeds careers, unlike Kirke who is 6 years into his, I'm not quite ready to judge.

Senior has fallen short of his usual standards but the last few years he's always started the season slowly and I see no reason why he won't improve.

Burgess (who I have criticised in season's past) has been superb. He's stood up and carried the team, unlike the vastly more experienced Kirke.

There is one player who has consistently failed to live up to expectation and reputation but I hardly dare mention his name for fear of the backlash, though he has been discussed above.

Sgt Wilko talks about blame and you talk about standards. Well, I am not looking to apportion blame and my expectation for this year wasn't particularly high. It's probably someone elese's time in the sun (Wigan and Warrington) and i can readily accept they might be better teams than us right now. I can accept players making mistakes or having off days. I can accept Leeds losing regulartly and not being very good (I was brought up on that). What I can't accept is a lack of effort. IMO, there is only one player guilty of consistently showing a complete lack of effort and so I do not think he receives a disproportionate amount of criticism compared to other players and proportionate to what we all believe he may be "earning" in terms of salary.

I agree with a fair bit of that G.

But please answer me this why do coaches keep picking him. Kirke has been copping it for years. If they see what you see Surley he would be running the water long before now as his performance haven't changed that much over the years.

For the record I recon with a nearly fit squad Kirke would be lucky to run the water. I think Amor is gonna be the real deal. I wanna see him get more game time before cross and Kirke.

It seems to me that the "value for money" argument comes out of comparison with other players, so to remove that, here are Kirke's stats in a Leeds shirt:

'06 - 13 Apps, 90 Carries, 675 M, 187 Tackles, 7 Misses.
'07 - 21 Apps, 123 Carries, 875 M, 322 Tackles, 18 Misses.
'08 - 8 Apps, 45 Carries, 303 M, 110 Tackles, 8 Misses.
'09 - 15 Apps, 119 Carries, 817 M, 330 Tackles, 19 Misses.
'10 - 24 Apps, 199 Carries, 1211 M, 522 Tackles, 42 Misses.
'11 - 6 Apps, 51 Carries, 370 M, 124 Tackles, 8 Misses.

The source for this is the SL website. Now assuming that the total number of attempted tackles is Tackles + Misses, not just the Tackles column, then he has the following stats per game:

'06 - Carries / Game = 6.9, M / Carry = 7.5, Tackles / Game = 14.9, Efficiency = 96%
'07 - Carries / Game = 5.9, M / Carry = 7.1, Tackles / Game = 16.2, Efficiency = 95%
'08 - Carries / Game = 5.6, M / Carry = 6.7, Tackles / Game = 14.8, Efficiency = 93%
'09 - Carries / Game = 7.9, M / Carry = 6.9, Tackles / Game = 23.3, Efficiency = 95%
'10 - Carries / Game = 8.3, M / Carry = 6.1, Tackles / Game = 23.5, Efficiency = 93%
'11 - Carries / Game = 8.5, M / Carry = 7.3, Tackles / Game = 22.0, Efficiency = 94%

Whilst the above doesn't take into account the number of minutes on the field, or the effectiveness of each drive or tackle, it does tell us that Kirke has improved his number of tackles per game since '08, whilst both his Metres per Carry and Carries per Game have remained broadly the same.

Are we criticising him unjustly?

I am not sure about Amor but hope you're right.

I thought Ambler looked much better in his 1st team stints last year and couldn't understand why he fell down the pecking order last year, let alone this.

Coaches do see the players a lot more than we do and we don't see the effort in training but that is the fun of this forum isn't it. We can all be experts from our armchairs