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"The Golden Generation finally has its Golden Fleece! They have Wembley Cup Final winners medals to add to their collection." 23/08/2014:



It was baffling to include Wellens and his seasons stats in the list anyway as of his 26 league appreances he only started 10 of those at FB.

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Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you! - Winston Churchill:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_40515.jpg



Quote: Neruda "why do you think i havent seen sufficient of the other contenders? and how would irrelevant skewed stats fix that anyway?

OK tell me how many matches have you seen each play last season?

Also explain why you think that using the number of carries is irrelevant for assessing attacking performance but somehow the same productivity formula is OK when used for average meters per carry or average kicking success rate or even tackle success rate.

It is how averages are worked out. In cricket the stats are called averages and a bowlers economy rate is worked out using the number of overs (not matches) and batsmen have their strike rates recorded based on the number of balls bowled. Nothing skewed about these!

Stats are a record of facts and if taken over a sufficient period will smooth out any anomalies or exceptions. They allow coaches and managers to study and analyse in detail to assist in evaluating performance. But they are not definitive and I have never said they are. They do not record many other factors like, attitude, commitment, strength of opposition, game winning/saving/losing plays etc etc

However in the context of a difference of opinion they can be fairly used to of support or oppose a point of argument. I repeat my use of stats is to support views and opinions previously formed in the usual way ie watching the players on the pitch. I regard Hardaker as very good in defense and returning the ball but lacking in creative play.

Whether you choose to use the totals on the basis of per season, per game or per time with ball in hand, Hardaker is well behind several of the other SL fullbacks (whether full time or part time) with regard to attack success. For last season ZH came 32nd in the try assist table and didn't even make the top 50 for either clean breaks or number of tries scored. Hardaker came 2nd in the Tackle bust table and 3rd for metres made but again did not make the top 50 for average gain. But he was 8th for number of carries (and the leading fullback)

Hardaker was tremendous under the high ball, in physical defense and physical attack with great tackle busts and metres made. Where he has to improve is in the finer points of attack so that his great efforts bring more success.
My eyes told me that and the stats backed it up.

So I have shown that several other fullbacks have much better strike rates than ZH but that does not mean they are better overall and without seeing a lot more of the competition I do not know if any are better or worse than ZH. Escare certainly had a fine season and Hanbury has been consistently good for the past couple of years and a reason for the improvement in what was a bottom of the table side.

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "



So I have shown that several other fullbacks have much better strike rates than ZH but that does not mean they are better overall and without seeing a lot more of the competition I do not know if any are better or worse than ZH. Escare certainly had a fine season and Hanbury has been consistently good for the past couple of years and a reason for the improvement in what was a bottom of the table side.'"


Escare can't defend for toffee, and while is a great finisher doesn't create as webb used to. would I swop him for Zak? no chance.

Hanbury has been good also but is nowhere near Zak ability wise. different level.

I agree webb was far better creatively but Zak is far better than him defensively. different types of players

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We have no loose forward , no second row that can break the line , same with the half backs , oldest front row in history , centres that don't pass , a winger that can't catch and we pick on one of the 2 most consistent players in the team. lies damn lies and statistics

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"The Golden Generation finally has its Golden Fleece! They have Wembley Cup Final winners medals to add to their collection." 23/08/2014:



Try Assists Per Carry

Hardaker 2014 - a try assist every 30.7 carries
Webb 2009 - 50.8
Webb 2007 - 34.7

Yeah, per carry is a great way to judge things. No, really.

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Quote: ThePrinter "Try Assists Per Carry

Hardaker 2014 - a try assist every 30.7 carries
Webb 2009 - 50.8
Webb 2007 - 34.7

Yeah, per carry is a great way to judge things. No, really.'"


icon_biggrin.gif icon_biggrin.gif icon_biggrin.gif

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[quote="Gotcha in 2016":12w08s93]McDermott is going. I actually think he is more relaxed because of it, and seems to have let the shackles go. He apparently asked to finish the season, and that is what they agreed.[/quote:12w08s93] :lol: :lol: :lol::d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_11388.jpg



Quote: ThePrinter "Try Assists Per Carry

Hardaker 2014 - a try assist every 30.7 carries
Webb 2009 - 50.8
Webb 2007 - 34.7

'"


Now i'm confused, does that mean that Escare, Hanbury, Eden, Shaul, Bowen, Wellens & Luke Dorn are all better than both Brent Webb (2007/09) and Zak Hardaker?

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "Hardaker was tremendous under the high ball, '"


His drops per carry stat will doubtless bear this out.

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Quote: ThePrinter "Try Assists Per Carry

Hardaker 2014 - a try assist every 30.7 carries
Webb 2009 - 50.8
Webb 2007 - 34.7

Yeah, per carry is a great way to judge things. No, really.'"



Tries per Carry

Hardaker 2014 a try every 50 carries
Webb 2009 - 25.42
Webb 2008 - 31.71
Webb 2007 - 20.10

Clean Breaks per Carry

Hardaker 2014 a clean break every 36 carries
Webb 2009 - 29.66
Webb 2008 - 17.07
Webb 2007 - 17.36

Yes really, per carry is a sound way of judging strike rates and attacking skills if taken alongside other evidence rather than using them in isolation to try and get a laugh.

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Quote: Clearwing "His drops per carry stat will doubtless bear this out.'"


The number of drops are not published as drops but are included as handling errors where Hardaker makes an error every 13.33 carries which is better than most of the other FBs mentioned. icon_biggrin.gif

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Quote: loiner81 "Now i'm confused, does that mean that Escare, Hanbury, Eden, Shaul, Bowen, Wellens & Luke Dorn are all better than both Brent Webb (2007/09) and Zak Hardaker?'"


No wonder you are confused if you take information out of context and in isolation. If you include several supporting factors the results sort of well .... 'average' out. icon_stupid.gif

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Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg



The point here as I mentioned before the stats would suggest Hardaker is amongst the best in SL but not head and shoulders above some of the others as has been suggested on here. He looks good because he is one of the few shining lights in a very average side that has be criminally under invested in. The players from the golden generation deserve better. There are other FBs out there with different but in some cases superior skills in some areas to Zak.

I can understand why most on here would not want to swop him that is a very fair call.

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Actually Sal it started off by you saying he wasn't the best fullback in our competition, and that there were 3/4 as good if not better than him. Even then that was only in response to me saying, had we not switched him to fullback we would never have had the best fullback in the competition, which was in regards to writing him off in positions before playing it, just giving an example of giving a chance before writing it off.

Now you seem to be saying slightly differently, and fair do if you are now accepting your initial response was a tad over reaction.

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[quote="Gotcha in 2016":12w08s93]McDermott is going. I actually think he is more relaxed because of it, and seems to have let the shackles go. He apparently asked to finish the season, and that is what they agreed.[/quote:12w08s93] :lol: :lol: :lol::d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_11388.jpg



Quote: Juan Cornetto "No wonder you are confused if you take information out of context and in isolation. If you include several supporting factors the results sort of well .... 'average' out.
Do they? So who's these 3-4 players better than Zak Hardaker then?

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Why didn't these other full backs get into the dream team or the England squad?

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