Really? In the 3 trophyless years prior to the 2003 season we finished at least 12 points off top spot. In 2003 Daryl Powell had assembled a young talented squad that was able to compete for trophies. In the 3 previous seasons I always classed us as the 4th best team behind Wigan, Saints and Bradford.

I fully believe that Powell would have won a GF in the following 3 seasons just like Smith did but we will never know. We may not have had the future period of success that we have enjoyed but we would have won GFs. In no way am I saying Powell is a good a coach as Smith but it is easy to look good when you have the best squad in the League like we did in 04 and 05.

and I full believe we wouldn't.

Like you say, it's pure conjecture but I think Powell was a good young coach but unable to get his players to take things to the next level, like Smith did.

Smith improved teh individual abilities of his players.

The net sum of penalties recieved - penalties conceded may well be accurate but it quite irrelevant to the issue which to remind was as I stated, that Bluey "inherited a champion quality side yet, IMO, presided over a decline in general playing standards with no improvement in our poor discipline"

So your argumentative point in no way changed the facts that are

You missed the very important fact the Leeds were Champions in 2007 which was the real Smith legacy McLennan took over -

As I had stated in fact! So he inherited the top side in SL who were running hot and in good form which you could argue didn't need much coaching but from 2009 despite our GF win the decline in standards began to surface becoming most noticeable in 2010.

This thread reminds me of the line in Wayne Bennett's book about a great captain being more important than a great coach, and a great captain will make the coach look good.

But also maybe my memory is failing me but I seem to remember being a visitor to the Leeds board in 2007 and seeing that the jury was very much out on Tony Smith (prior to the GF win) and the argument of "presided over a general decline in playing standards" was being used against Smith then.

Also when Smith was appointed Warrington coach in 2009 we had a few Leeds fans on our forum warning us not to expect too much...the argument being that Smith had taken over Leeds at the right time to enjoy a season of great success, but then had unbalanced the team, left it short in the front row and seen a slip in playing standards in his last two seasons at Leeds whilst not getting on entirely with all the squad.

To test McLennan's real ability you need a counterfactual of how would he go in a different environment, like Smith and Millward have done. You could argue that Smith was only successful because he had a great squad at Leeds, but his record at Warrington disputes that. You could argue that Millward was only successful because he had a great squad at Saints, and his record at Wigan suggests there is something in that.

He has a great squad at Warrington too. Maybe a fairer test will be to see how he fares as Morley and Briers continue to age.

His record speaks for itself.

He turned Huddersfield around - although they were (finally) relegated in his first season there the progression both within that season and, overall, compared to the previous ones was clear. He then cemented their position in the top flight after getting them promoted and, arguably, laid the foundations for the club being competetive as it remains today.

His challenge at Leeds was to ditch the loser mentality. His error, such as it was, was in doing it so quickly and so emphatically that we all started expecting more, much more and, no doubt, he struggled to deliver as much as we wanted in 2005 and especially 2006. When he quit mid season in '07 general feeling here was that it was the right time but he managed to get the perfect ending - no doubting, based on the testimony of the Leeds players, the legacy of Tony Smith and the impact he had on this group of players remains fundamental to the three subsequent title victories.

At Warrington, he has had an even more dramatic turnaround compared to Leeds. Sure, he has had plenty of money backing him but much of the squad that won those two Challenge Cups were the same as the one that Cullen had taken to the bottom of the league.

His record at club level is, in my mind, pretty much impeccable.

Warrington did have a good squad who were tipped to do well,but underperformed Smith came in and made them play to their potential,he also did a good job at Huddersfield. Good coach

It does. But Smith's Warrington squad was and is a very good one. TS has improved it from where it was, no doubt, but should it fail to win a GF it won't have reached its full potential IMO.

I remember an article back in 2003 on SS.com and it went along the lines of Leeds being only 6 points from glory, indicating that an extra 3 pts in the CC final would have given us the cup, an extra point in the defeat to Bradford in Sept would have landed us the LL shield, and an extra 2 points against Wigan in the play-offs would have won us that game and got us to the GF. At the time I felt we were unlucky to come to the end of the season without some silverware, but when you couple those facts with the fact that we lost to Bulls 5 times that season, and there was fair daylight between us and the other teams, I think it highlights that we were not able to do the little extra things in the tight and big games. ONce Smith came in I think he added steel to a very talented squad, which enabled them to fulfil their potential. The Leeds team he inherited were very good, and had loads of potential, but were missing that little bit to turn them into winners.

Once Bluey came in the team already had that big game mentality and were used to winning. However, it needed to be maintained, and I think he was the right man for the job as Leeds needed someone to keep them fresh, and bring out the best in them once the finals came around. He was probably also highly responsible for the "players having a few less quid in their pockets" mentality, which was a key to their continued unprecedented sucess.

Who gave away more penalties in their tenure? I couldn't give a tuppeny

Your point isn't proven in real terms as it takes no account of what was happening in the rest of the league at the same time.

As Swiftcorn's figures showed earlier in the thread

Earlier I asked how you were defining poor discipline and you replied

The point that the number of penalties Leeds conceded (using only the SL Regular Rounds - a sample which basically excludes knock-out football) increased under McClennan (without placing that in the context of what was happening in the rest of SL) is proven but was also never in question.