I had a great time following Leeds in 2005. It certainly didn't compete with the euphoria of 2004, and actually I think I am able to reflect on it more fondly in light of the 4 titles we've won since. But, we did play some of the best rugby I've seen from any side in this country, particluarly in the first half of the season. But ultimately the point of professional sport is to win, and a season which bumbles along and ends on a high sits better in my memory than one that starts with fireworks and then fizzles out.

Did you manage to watch all season in 2005 or just pick and choose the odd game?

It certainly didn't "fizzle out". We hit an injury situation because of the coaches silly decision. That same decision cost us both trophies in the end. The season however was still fantastic, and the rugby the best we have played throughout any era since the 70's.

Are you really saying that last season compared to 2005 just because we actually managed to receive a trophy in that year?

I did see the whole season, home and away, from beginning to end, thanks for patronising though.

When you start (and continue through the middle) as the dominant force in the league before ultimately falling short and winning nothing, that counts as fizzling out in my book. You can blame the coach's decision re Senior for the loss in Cardiff without too much objection (while I maintain that you can't know what would have happened had he selected a different team) but to blame the Grand Final defeat on that doesn't really stack up. By the time we got to Old Trafford, that decision had ruled one player out. Big deal. What cost us that trophy was that we ran out of steam while Bradford peaked at the right time and won (13?) on the spin at the end of the season.

So, am I saying that last season compared to 2005? Depends what you mean. For direct comparison it was a very different season, but for me the low points made the ultimate high point all the more sweet. I certainly didn't feel as chirpy walking away from Old Trafford at the very end of 2005. Several games from 2005 linger in the memory and I enjoyed the season. As I say, I would probably remember it less fondly had we not subsequently reclaimed that trophy. For me, last season the ultimate goal was accomplished, in 2005 it wasn't. For me, that makes it a better season. You can view it differently (surely this is a subjective thing after all) but I fail to see the point of getting all uppity and incredulous because my view is different to yours.

You'd think your six foot wanger would make you a little less insecure than that.

2011, will only be remembered for what, 3 games maybe?!

Should rugby league have a "Harlem Globetrotters" exhibition team for those that care more about "entertainment" than being champions?

Had I put a it down as a statement then I would accept your patronising comment. But it was a question and that's all. So I will take it as you been touchy.




We didn't run out of steam. We had players out of position, and it cost us, which came down to the one decision at Cardiff. Had Senior not played then, he would have been fit for the proper big one.

2005 was a great year. I would suggest those stating otherwise are nothing more than glory seeking bandwagoners. I hope that doesn't sound too patronising to those it applies to, or those of a sensitive nature.

Yet another example of how obtuse you can be when your views are challenged. Rugby is entertainment, nobody would go and watch a game against the Aussie national side if winning was why they went, we have no chance of winning. A lot go to have the opportunity to see the likes of Inglis, Slater, Lockyer i.e. the best the game has to offer that is what entertainment is about.

Nah LL, a bit more than the last 3. I can still remember the first half dozen, and the W.T.F. was that all about looks on the faces of fellow Rhinos fans.

For me, I'd prefer to watch a season where my team played up to their abilities, and if they made the GF, and on that day they were better than the opposition, then great! And despite being teed off if we lose, I don't simply consign the season to the dustbin on the basis of that one final match.

I vaguely remember a cricket match a few years back where the opposition had to score 4 of the last ball to win, so the bowler made sure of the result by bowling underarm along the ground! I'm pretty sure he was an Aussie, and I reckon if you've got to win in that style, you deserve a smack around the helmet from the departing batsman.

So why the bigger attendances in the big leagues? Why in the big leagues, the bigger attendances at the big games? Why do winning teams get bigger attendances? Because of what's at stake - meaningful wins and losses.

People watch games against the Aussie national side because when then win comes, it means more than another win. (The fact you say we have no chance of winning, despite have frequently beaten them just shows your mentality)

If it's the skills of Inglis, Slater, Lockyer, go watch a training session. You will see far greater skills shown there more often than they get to show in a game. However, without a meaningful result, it's entirely irrelevant. It's only meaningful when something is at stake.

[Wheels mode] Being [\Wheels mode]

I was unaware that questions couldn't be patronising. How silly of me.



Firstly, regardless of why he was out, if missing one centre is enough to cost you a Grand Final then your squad isn't good enough. We've certainly won Grand Finals with key injuries in the backs since then.

Besides which, you or I have absolutely no way of knowing whether Senior would have been fit for Old Trafford had he not played in Cardiff. Ligament injuries are tricky things to predict recovery for, even for qualified professionals who are able to assess the injury in person rather than from 70 yards away in a stand. You are neither.



Patronising? Possibly. Demonstrative of an inabilty to accept that there are more than one set of values by which you can judge a situation? Certainly.

I can see why you prefer 2005. They are perfectly valid reasons and I'm not going to start calling anyone names for holding a different opinion. Mine just differs. Doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy 2005, as I have already said I did.

Since it took nearly 20 years of supporting Leeds for me to see my first title win, I'll pass on the bandwagoners remark. As for glory-seeking, I think the pursuit of glory is an excellent trait in a sports team. It isn't the only view, but I don't think it's a view that's the sole preserve of bandwagoners. There's a phrase "no guts, no glory." If the phrase "no guts, no entertaiment ultimately not rewarded by meaningful silverware" is in popular use then it has passed me by I'm afraid.

Chicks dig winners. They also dig entertainers (ask Gene Simmons). Live and let live I say.

In many ways I can't beleive we are having this discussion, interesting as though it is. We went 32 years without a championship, we've had 1 challenge cup in a similar period of time. What we have seen is a team that will go down in history of one of the great sides of the era. People may hark back to times when a particular team played a particular brand of rugby, but the truely great teams are the ones who get their names on trophies, and back that up season after season. Top level sport is primarily about winning. Yes, if you can win with style then its so much better, but losing playing great rugby is not a good feeling.

2004 was a one off. After the 2 early season defeats to Saints we were practically untouchable for the rest of the season. We were also helped by Sainst shooting themselves in the foot.

In 2005 it started off the same, we didn't just win, we won big and in style, but whether it was fatigue, or the fact that the team wasn't battle hardened for the big games or not, it was a disappointment. It would be an interesting parallel to see how Warrington fans felt about 2011 when they were the dominant league, but ended up almost empty handed.

A similar pattern follwed for 2006. We started well, but faded badly towards the end, with a weaker squad, and ended up trophyless.

I believe that from this point onwards Leeds learned that its a tough ask to be at your best for the whole season. peaking week after week, and still be fresh come the big games at the end of the season. THis was when we started to play a bit more within oursleves. We didn't always shoot out of the traps, we had inconsistent performances, un and down in the league. But when it really mattered, the team had belief that if it left enough in the tank, and was still in contention come the big games that it would be a force to be reckoned with. It may seem like a risky strategy, but I don't think you can argue with the results. 4 out of 5 titles have been won, and 2010 we cam pretty close but for late injuries to key players.

As a non-season ticket holder it works well for me. I get to 5 or 6 games a year. I book my tickets to finals in advance, and I watch the rest on the TV. Although crowds have gone down since the heady days of 2004 & 2005, I don't think they have dropped off that dramatically, compared with the position of Leeds over the weekly rounds. I would say that the reason for this is that although the entertainment 'win ratio' value has dropped off, the games are probably more close and therefore entertaining. In 2005 we scored an average of 40pts in the weekly rounds, and 60 & 70 point wins were regular. Whilst its good for a season or so, long term its not that entertaining, and the nature of the salary cap means its not sustainable in the long term. Also, there is the obvious element that enjoy being attached to a sucessful club. It may not be a great spectacle, but following a champion team means you get to see these players each week, and you get to experience nights like the WCC.

No I am not either. But that doesn't make the comment of "absolutely no way of knowing" any more truthful.

It was stated at the time on all media outlets, and Senior's own web discussions, that he might be able to play at Cardiff with painkilling injection, but if he did and more damage was done then he would be out for rest of season.

Guess what happened?

So serious question Eagle. If we all did the same as you and had the same view, do you honestly think Leeds would have been anywhere close to having seasons 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2011?

They may well have still had the resources for 2007. But if everybody chose to pick and choose their games then the team would have been dismantled from 2008.

This is quite an easy argument for people picking and chosing matches, and going to a minority of games. I can't honestly say my view would be any different to yours, if I chose that route.

But for those that go to each game, not only at home but also plenty if not all away, it is that customer that gives the resources to enable winning the trophies at the end.

Just to be really clear, I'm not for a second saying that entertainment in the on-field action is not important. It certainly is. For me, the big things are success and entertainment. It's just that for me they belong in that order.

You're suggesting that the not quite all conquering 2005 team are excused from failing to win the big prize because a centre got injured? Ignoring the fact that he was replaced by a bloke who had played centre for Australia.

You also contradict yourself. If it "cost us both trophies" because he played an unfit Senior then are you suggesting we could have won the CC had Senior not plated and, if so, why then could we not win the GF without him?

Last year's team went into the playoffs without it's two main centres but still succeeded where the 2005 team failed.

2005 was a failure (WCC apart). At times the team was entertaining but, frankly, the games were dull. Watching us put 50-60 points on uncompetetive teams each week in uncomptetive games weas not my idea of entretainment.

I'd suggest that the glory hunters are actually you and Sal if that floats your boat. I want to see games that are genuinely competetive with the outcome is far from certain and the Leeds 2011 team faced far more of those than the 2005 flat track bully team.