I hope Cameron doesn't go the same way as Sutcliffe and played in multiple positions without being going a chance to develop in one. Sutcliffe for me is one of the worst in the team. No passing game, poor kicking game, seems to play half d. Its unbelievable that they continue to play him there. To think that he was being mentioned as not only Kev's replacement but an international stand off. He's gone backwards skill wise. I'd rather have Cuthbo at 6

Only 3 subs used as well.

He should be playing backrow instead of that waste of space Ferres. Cams a better player, he'l have bad games here and there but he's a threat, can break a tackle, step a bit and got a passing game. Cant believe we play a useless old slug who's only contributions are always negative, before him.

If Smith, Trout or Muizz had a game like Ferres did last night, theyd be deemed not ready, too young or out of there depth and sent back to the stands for months, Ferres has been having games like that all year but when fit, he plays every time. I said after 5 games this season that performance should start reflecting in team selection, it still isnt. The same useless players are still being picked regardless, no one on this planet will convince me that Smith, Muizz or Trout could stand on that left edge and be worse than Ferres. The experience angle dosnt even wash with him, he gives the most stupid penaltys away, you'd drag an u12 off if they were so stupid, 5th tackle, nothing set coming to an end, low scoring game... he blatantly leaves his hand in giving them an easy two, absolute imbecile.

I think your all looking at the unreal position you find yourself and your club in, from the inside looking out.

You obviously focus on players and coaches and even KS which all supporters of any club would after a defeat or a series of defeats, but what’s happened at Leeds, and what is still happening, is on a different scale to this.

Whereas... From the outside looking in it is patently obvious that the ship has been steered by someone with no vision for the team itself, allowing a great team to age gracefully as one. He was lost in the success and warped belief “it would just always be like this” because he never had a plan for managed transition.

Action to make change on the playing rosta should have been quite normal....to plan ahead sensibly for a changing of the guard.

But as they approached the precipice, there was no movement, and winning the GF only ensured he took his eyes away from the impending doom.
Following this, a season when things finally came home to roost when finishing bottom 4, did still not have the needed effect and excuses were found as you will all remember well.

Then, when everyone outside the club thought the collapse was imminent, you go and win the GF again !! against all the odds.

This turned out be the ultimate in papering over the cracks as more of stalwarts of your great side of many years also left after this amazing success. Truths were about to bite home.

Suddenly, like no one at the helm had seen it coming, the cupboard “suddenly” looked bare.

And yes, the club had finally arrived at the precipice without a team. And now it was too late to put it right.
Super League needs Leeds in it. Your man at the top is guilty of gross mismanagement of the highest order.
This should simply never happen with a club of your standing, but it has, and still is.
Unless there is fundamental change it will continue, as the Captain Will carrying steering it as he will. Regardless.
As you now cling on by your fingertips, wondering how a team can be so poor ?? How every player has been deemed not good enough for Leeds. Today it’s all but 3 or 4 who did ok. But those 3 or 4 have had their detractors too in previous weeks.

So in the end you reap what you sow, and the person sowing your seeds for the future team appears to have forgotten his bag of seeds.
And now he and everyone is wondering what the hell are they going to do ??? !!! Because it looks like something has gone seriously wrong.
And no-one seems to have the answers, least of all the man who’s steered you to this point.
To blame players or coaches at this late point is tantamount to saying that the band are total crap while the ships sinking.

Shocking game last night, two very poor teams, neither team deserved to win, and Kendall the ref, what game was he at. If the last try would have been the winning score he would never have set foot in Headingley again. I cannot remember when he has been in charge of a home game at Headingley that we have won. We don't get any breaks from him"
The game last night shows how far super league has dropped to the depths of despair. Nothing between the two teams yet Wigan win and they are 2 points from the top 4 and we are basically one game away from being bottom.
If the salary cap has brought the game into being competitive, then the quality of the game has fallen through the floor. I always thought that with a good plan and good marketing then the powers that be could turn the game around and develop the quality and skills that would bring back the crowds, unfortunately SL is run by people who are only looking after them selves and not the game overall. Last night showed how two of the biggest names in Rugby in the space of a few years have really sunk to the depths of the teams who candidly should never be in SL. Both teams had no individual skill on the pitch, if Williams is a international half back then I might as well start playing again.
We will never get to the standard of the NRL we are light years away from that standard being held back by the teams who have little or no support

I, like everyone else on here, loves this sport and have had numerous discussions with people about why it's the greatest game in the world. But right now, I struggle to defend it. Even allowing for how good the NRL is, that's one league in the world. So I too try to work out where it's all gone wrong, and for me there's 3 big areas (I know others will think there's other reasons):

The lack of international rugby and identity. You look at the England football team and the young players coming through. For so long we produced solid workers with little flair, but that's changing and largely because they looked at the DNA and worked towards creating these players. Imagine if we had a thriving international game where the RFL set out the way we wanted to play - with creative half back, speed in the backs, footwork in the second row, and set out a plan for the academies to follow. Then as players reach international level, there's salary cap exemptions.

On the back of this there's the lack of reserve grade. So many of the greats talk about their time playing in the reserves on their way up, and at the end of their career. Youngsters would get so much more learning from playing with and against some big names than people who go back to their day job on a Monday morning. It's also a step up in class to further ingrain the DNA.

Then there's relegation. The game doesn't have enough quality to make this work. Right now the teams at the bottom rely on guys who can do a job, but it's really the prime time to bring youngsters through - who would have been cutting their teeth in the reserves. It makes for a stronger league where over a period of time teams can build to be at the top.

Last night was a game between the 10th and 7th placed teams. Do people really believe the standard was really worse than between the 10th and 7th placed teams of previous years?

Absolutely, miles worse. Some of the bottom teams between 2000-2010 would be beating this years Saints and Warrington team with ease. The whole competition is massively low on any quality,

You cant possibly believe that. Some of the bottom teams from 2000s would beat the top 2 teams currently with ease? Wowser.

Definitely, without a shadow of doubt. London just beat them last week, and they wouldn’t have picked up a single point in that period. You really are kidding yourself with this argument Marty.

It was also the 2018 Champions v 2017 Champions.
These were the teams in 2007 grand final.
The competition has certainly got weaker.

Paul Wellens Fullback Brent Webb
Ade Gardner Winger Scott Donald
Matthew Gidley Centre Clinton Toopi
Willie Talau Centre Keith Senior
Francis Meli Winger Lee Smith
Leon Pryce Stand Off Danny McGuire
Sean Long Scrum Half Rob Burrow
Nick Fozzard Prop Kylie Leuluai
Keiron Cunningham Hooker Matt Diskin
Jason Cayless Prop Jamie Peacock
Lee Gilmour 2nd Row Jamie Jones-Buchanan
Chris Flannery 2nd Row Gareth Ellis
Jon Wilkin Loose Forward Kevin Sinfield (c)
James Roby Interchange Ali Lauitiiti
Mike Bennett Interchange Ryan Bailey
James Graham Interchange Ian Kirke
Maurie Fa'asavalu Interchange. Carl Ablett

People have selective memories when it comes to remembering the game of the past. I think what's happened is teams have adapted and innovated their defenses at a faster rate than teams have managed to innovate and adapt their attacking structures. The last time we saw a major attacking innovation was when Maguire introduced the 2 attacking lines into Wigan's play almost a decade ago. Leeds and Cas have been the outliers in that time, but we've not seen any new ideas from coaches for a while.

No sure why you bringing those teams up mate. Pretty sure those teams didnt finish 10th or 7th.

As I said above yesterday we had the 2018 Champions v 2017 Champions