Thing is Matts that the academy has only ever produced a couple of first teamers a year even in the golden decade.

The team can lose but you have one or two who go on to make it - that’s actually okay. Flip side of course is that winning games and titles at junior level is a general signal of health.

Looking at our pool, I’d say Jack Smith, Lumb, Cassell, Oladipupo, Gannon we know about, Lloyd, Stelfox, Simpson, Littlewood, Ned McCormack…. All decent chances of making first grade.

There is some quality in there especially at back row and centre.

I do think we’ll see more juniors staring to push into the first team over the next few years than we’ve seen for a while. I do agree that I’d like to see more evidence of their potential with team results though.

Jim, im fully aware of the talented players we recruit into the club, theres even more you havnt listed that are more talented than some you have, im also under no illusion that a talented junior does not guarantee a first grade player...But the minum requirement should be a dominant Scholarship intake/player, maintain that into their Academy careers, remain best in class within their peer group, we dont come close, nearly as much as we should

What a club has to do, is to give them the best possible chance of reaching maximum potential, for a club like leeds, that should be best in country, and it isnt anywhere near. The facility's are there, the coaching isnt. You seem to watch a few games like myself, but we are watching through a different lens if you are seeing any kind of learning or mental development in the way these lads are playing, each game is a mirror image of the last...Errors, stupid decisions, weak mentality, bad habits which wernt there in scholarship and generally just not as resilient as the opposition.

The current situation isnt new, its the latest in a long line of poor decisions at Academy/reserves level, so looking historicaly at the pattern of players developing isnt something to eleviate some criticism from the current set up, its more frustrating they haven't yet changed stance on how they operate...Results at this level matter, development coaches hiding behind the cliche phrases associated with development are usually the poor ones. Lads who were best in class at Scholarship but then cant win a game at Academy and reserves and look generally less intelligent players at 17/18 than they did at 15/16, is an issue, They are being cought up and overtaken by their peers

The historic issue since the goldens was 2 fold, recruitment and development, Thankfully we have addressed the recruitment side of our junior programmes, we had become poor, we are now very good, but the development side is not where it needs to be and will eventually harm the recruitment side again.

I’m not totally disagreeing with you Matts. You’re looking at team performances as a homogenous thing; what I’m saying is that it’s not the be all and end all at junior grades to win all the time, because realistically you might have only 1 or 2 players from an entire intake make the grade.

I.e. the most important thing is that we have a couple of genuine potential first graders in a given year, ideally. If their colleagues aren’t as good then the team will lose.

Your view around the lack of quality in coaching and development - it does look valid on face value and maybe it is a problem as you say.

A million factors can derail youngsters from success: some lads mature far earlier and look world beaters at 15, and then very ordinary when their peers catch up physically. Girls, booze, attitude all have big parts to play. Generally junior scouts tend to over-focus on attack rather than D in my view. Lots of players look okay going forward but don’t have the grit for defence.

I share lots of frustrations with the errors and lack of cohesion the teams seem to show mate. The big caveat again is what impact playing younger-age players has on that. One year at that age makes a big difference to size and strength, and it shows in results. But also that could be an excuse - I don’t know enough about the set up or behind the scenes.

Fair enough and now many of that academy winning side from 2 years ago are now in first grade at Leeds?

I think six of that squad are still at Leeds with the usual couple per age group in with a shout if making it.

Point is the majority of that winning team have already left Leeds.

Again, I don’t disagree the coaching doesn’t seem to be yielding the right performances this season.

Not as many as there should be because their development was then stalled under Smith

Point being, a poor coach can take the wind out of a players development and progress

Riley Lumb made his senior debut on the wing for Halifax yesterday, winning MOM in a 0-46 loss

It would be good if he could get a run of games there, if not here with all our injuries

He is a player I think could make the grade, but he's way too light at the moment.

Good win for the Academy today, against a pretty good Hull team.

Plenty of first years playing again and among the try's, hopefully a confidence builder and they kick on from here

Anyone going to Stanningley today?

Good to see George Brown back at the club and playing tonight, another really talented half who was with us through Scholarship but went the RU route when his team mates, the current 1st years, joined the Academy

Good result again there Matts - Brown came across well on his interview as well.

I have to say been increasingly impressed with Zak Lloyd, I really like the look of him in the back row.

Zak Lloyd is very good, always been regarded as a special talent, that can obviously change Plenty from u13's etc, but so far, he's progressing as expected, the position the club chose for him was always going to be interesting, he was the best player in Yorkshire playing centre, fullback and 6 coming through at Siddal.

As good as some of the talents are in the first year Academy group, and they are very good and very deep, Lloyd and Jacob Hardy, from our second year scholarship group, could very well be 2 of the best 3 talents in the whole system, along with Cassell, Harvey Butterworth is the third in the same intake as Hardy and Lloyd who's a top talent

Brown played his community rugby with Harley Thomas at Dewsbury Celtic, always had as good a show and go as you'l see, great talent to get back into the club and RL, and like you say, came across very well in his interview, mature beyond his years

Lloyd seems to have everything, is he still 16 do you know?

Cassell is another obvious potential first grader as you say; we have a clutch of talented but slightly small outside backs too.

We aren’t going to struggle at back row or centre for a good while. I quite like Brown and Wade White too. Stelfox has some potential as well from the one time I’ve seen him play.

I’d like to see better defensive technique from some; I think at junior grades everyone gets excited about good runners but it’s only half the game. It’s one reason you can sense Cassell will make it because he has aggression and technique in D already. Interesting times.

Harry Smith is an interesting one at Half Back, watching him for West Bowling, he was the number 1 target in the whole country i hoped the club would secure in his age group, ahead of Cassell, Marcus QQ, Thomas etc...He hasnt quite hit my expectations as yet in a Leeds shirt, but he's someone Mark Butterill rates as one the best halfs he's ever had in the scholarship.