which is the TV game then?

Rochdale against the bulls

Agreed. And then the debate on the VT is slagging off the RFL for not having blue chip marketing directors banging on the door of Red Hall.

Is it any wonder the only firms interested in talking to the RL audience are pay-day loan provider and Foxy Bingo?

I'd buy that argument if play-off attendances stood up to scrutiny. The fact is that only 8,235 people were willing to pay £19 for our play-off semi final at Wigan last season. If RL fans don't value a match that is 80mins away from the Grand Final, why would anyone else?

Rather simplistic analysis to just blame supporters for holding the game back by their unwillingness to pay for cup or knockout games. But let me explain why.

Why don't today's fans of SL value matches where it involves having to pay for a ticket or at the turnstiles, whether they be CC or SL play-off fixtures?

Firstly, I believe the CC has been devalued as a competition since the introduction of SL. Sky don't like it as it's regarded as a hindrance to their flagship SL competition. It interrupts the regular rounds of SL. Eddie, Stevo and others have often made this point on Sky which is a deliberate denigration of the CC. The timing and organisation of the CC rounds are also ridiculous and lack credibility as three rounds are played inside 5 to 6 weeks followed by a wait of 9 to 10 weeks between the QF's and the SF's and a further wait of 6 weeks after that for the CC Final itself. That is not the way to maintain supporters interest in a knockout cup competition.

Secondly, SL era supporters are primarily discounted season ticket holders. This was not the case prior to SL where the majority of supporters turned up on the day and paid at the turnstiles. A cultural shift has taken place where SL era supporters have got used to paying just the once for the whole season and aren't geared to parting with their cash for one-off games. My belief is that when those CC games or SL play-offs come round and the supporters have to pay for it, they do not value any of those one-off fixtures as worth the extra outlay. The only value they see is in the purchase of a discounted season ticket.

It is Sky, the SL clubs and the RFL who are to blame and who have devalued the CC and the sport in general. The SL clubs have managed this via the successful marketing and selling of discounted (in many cases, heavily discounted) season tickets and the RFL via discounted ticket sales for both CC Final and the SL Grand Final. Today's supporters of the SL-era are therefore used to getting their regular season SL games on the cheap, along with the CC Final and SL Grand Final tickets.

Leeds V Castleford in a knockout cup competition in this day and age is no longer the mouth-watering match up it once used to be either. The vast majority of regular season SL fixtures are low-intensity fare but the CC fixtures are even worse fare these days. Castleford are bottom of the whipping boy SL rabble table and Leeds just need to turn up to win. Given the increasing lack of credibility of the CC competition for reasons stated above, I can quite understand why many of today's supporters would possess little to no interest in paying £17 to attend this game... which is still more than they'd pay to watch a regular season game with their season ticket.

Some good points.

It has to be remembered though that gates were not all that great pre- super league in the early rounds of the competition.I can remember going to an early round match against Saints at Headingley in the early 90's and there were less than 10,000 in the ground.

Im sure they were better on the whole, and you could pull up some stats to prove this but for me the most worrying drop off in fan interest is when we reach the Semi final stages.20-35,000 crowds would pack football stadiums like Elland Road and Old Trafford or Central Park and Headingley in hope of seeing their team make Wembley.Heck, even a decade ago we could fill the Galpharm which is now lucky to be half to three quarters full.

At least the cup final is still pretty much is a sell out.

Not often I agree with you, but on this occasion I do.

When I was growing up I bloody loved the Challenge Cup.

It WAS the be all and end all of Rugby League.

Our Street was Rugby League mad and who ever got to the Final at Wembley we used to take a full coach and enjoy the day out. These days, hardly anyone bothers with RL which is really sad.

The Challenge Cup back then at the old Wembley was like winning the FA Cup in Football, it had to be done. It was “THE” Cup Competition and everyone wanted to win…for some reason it personally doesn’t have the pull it used to?

Pre summer rugby, the CC final used to be the big game at, or rather close to, the end of the season - a role now fulfilled by the GF. Its devaluation was a cert once that happened and, should the magic weekend ever fully catch on, it'll be shoved further down the pecking order.
I think the points about season tickets are pretty much spot on. It's my perception that we (i.e. the game as a whole) gained a lot of fans who were attracted as much by the occasion of reg season games as by the standard of rugby on offer. Judging by attendances, they're pretty much stuck in a groove of attending the league matches while not bothering with the play offs. This is an utterly bizarre pattern of behaviour for anyone wishing to see the game at its best.

I think this is true.
There were Championship finals and playoffs in the past but they considered alongside the CC and were maybe slightly below the CC in terms of occasion and prestige.


Mr Eve's bit about seasoin tickets is probably a factor too.

I also agree with Mr Eve about SL's role in the decline in the CC but not for exactly the same reasons.
For me the major factor is that, in theory at least, in the old days most teams could entertain dreams of getting to the QF, SF or final of the CC .... but SL has brought about an elite League of full-time players, much more separated and elite than in the past (except for Wigan in the 80s), drastically reducing the chances of a giant-killing, and thereby lessening the interest in the competition.

I'm not sure they all are pretty much a sellout. Leeds V Wigan in particular in 2011... there were huge swathes of empty seats, particularly at the Leeds end and in the corners (upper decks above Club Wembley... or the ring of indifference as I like to call it).

well,the new Wembley holds 90,000 i believe so 10,000 more than the old one at the end of its days.

We still get 75 to 85,000 which matches the old crowds and in my view is pretty much a sell out.Thats not to say alot of the older finals could not have been sold out twice over as the cup clearly meant so much more back then.

The Final itself, although it should always be a complete sell out IMO, is not the biggest problem facing the CC these days.

These are very good points that WE makes - the same has happened in soccer whereby the FA Cup is a second class competition to the PL which is qualifying comp for the Champions league. The romance of the competition is gone as there is no chance of team outside of the top 8 SL sides getting to the final. All concerned and I include the players/coaches see it as a hinderance in pursuit of the bigger prize - quite correctly - the GF.

It is a great day the final and it gives the sport much needed national TV coverage - that aside I am not sure what value it has anymore.

It's a huge factor. A better gauge of the popularity of the sport is to look at the attendances at games which really count - like knockout CC games and SL playoffs - attendances for these CC games and Semi Finals are embarrassingly poor these days. Moreover, attendances at SL play-offs have also nosedived sharply, particularly since the introduction of the Top 8 play-off system.

If the SL product was as fantastic as Sky, the RFL and the SL clubs claim it is, season tickets wouldn't have to be sold so cheaply. The SL clubs know the product and the structure of the regular season is not good enough to attract enough people for 13 games unless you give them a ticket for each game at a discounted rate.

Same applies to the CC Final too... it's flogged at a discount and hugely so in some cases... from free seat upgrades to the next category up to the "Wembley Wednesday" CC Final offers. I took advantage of that one in 2010 for the Leeds V Warrington final... the ticket cost just £10. Granted, it was a nosebleed seat on the top tier close to the back of the stand but it was still almost on the half way line. Prices like that create a culture where today's supporters are not used to paying on the day (due to cheap season ticket) or they expect a heavily discounted offer on ticket prices for one-off games.

As I alluded to earlier, the RFL and SL clubs marketing created this culture. If those who govern the sport and the clubs consistently devalue the sport with their cheapo discounts, they have to expect supporters to value the sport likewise.


I agree that lack of credible teams capable of winning these days is definitely another huge factor in the decline of the CC - I place it under the umbrella of "Super League to blame - killing off the CC slowly but surely" which has caused supporter apathy in the competition these days.

Realistically how do you revive the CC? Ever cheaper tickets are not the answer and just serve to further devalue it IMO.

I would start by moving it back so we play the early rounds in winter and the final in May.

If it's not on tv I tend to go to our games, especially if it's somewhere new or a team we don't usually play. Cost has to be an issue these days for many fans so any discount is to be welcomed.
I will repeat what I've posted elsewhere & agree with Bullseye, bring the cup forward & I'd go further to say replace the magic weekend with the cup final.