Turning a club of losers into a club of winners is not the simple task some would have you believed. Leeds had been "inevitable" winners of something for a long time before it became fact.

I think it's a fair argument that at Leeds Tony Smith inherited a squad that was on the cusp of something special and that Daryl Powell does deserve credit for overhauling a squad that was largely based on ageing big names, to one that was young and hungry. Powell has had some success subsequently that proves he is a good coach.

However if there were any doubts of Smith's ability to turn a squad from underachievers to achievers then look at his record at Warrington - we were crap when he took over from Jimmy Lowes, Smith turned us not only into contenders but trophy winners from the word go, he was to us what Graham Murray was to Leeds from 1998, except he won another Challenge Cup and got us to the top of the league.

Which parameters have you used to assess poor discipline?

Using the nett figure of penalties received - penalties conceded: the negative peak when looking at the past 7 seasons was reached in Leeds' back-to-back-to-back winning season of 2009

It then improved (while still remaining in negative territory) in McClennan's final season in charge when Leeds went trophyless.

Thankfully last season the nett negative count was again on the increase as Leeds returned to the winner's circle.

Are we then to conclude that discipline has declined since Coach McDermott took charge?

mcclennan should be in the hall of fame without a doubt,i don't care what propagand is insinuated rightly or wrongly,his record will simply do for me thanks

Then the very same could be said of Mcdermott as Head coach someone who you backed to the hilt and had the pleasure of "i told you so" post GF and Wembley.
Lets not forget how dire we were in many games last year and how at times our discipline was disgraceful for pro players of that experience.
You can't have it both ways and the facts remain we were a success under Mclennon and he achieved things NO OTHER COACH had/has achieved in the SL era so it's a "no brainer" he should be in the hall of fame as should Brian Mc when he eventually leaves.

I beg to differ rhinoms. It was the team that achieved things no other team has achieved in the SL era and Bluey deserves credit for his part in that. However in assessing his part in that success you have to take into consideration that he took over the Champion side. But the fact remains that our playing standards declined under his stewardship which is my point. So to include him in the H of F would have to be based solely on the team winning silverware rather than him being a good coach and improving playing standards and individual skills.

Your comparison with BMcD is not a fair one. He did not take over a Champion side - in fact he took over a side in decline that had played badly and with poor discipline for most of the previous season. Add to that the serious long term injuries to key players - plus a host of new injuries early in the season - plus most of the players were 4 years older than when BM first was in charge. So you cannot say the two coaches started with equal resources.

My regular posts backing BMcD were not because I thought everything was ok but were in response to the many hysterical and unfair critics who were calling for his head without taking into consideration the difficult circumstances he had been put in. My much repeated point was 'get off his back and give him a fair chance'. I had been impressed with what I saw of the work he did under Smith and I thought he had something of the Clint Eastwood mean toughness in him that I quite liked.

Our final success in 2011 was again due to the character of this outstanding group of players first and foremost but IMO the part played by BMcD in this success was greater than Blueys was in 2008 and yet he too has "achieved things no other coach has done"

I didn't mean to crow after our Wembley/Playoff/GF performances but there was hardly a one who acknowledged that my stance had been right. So sorry if I rubbed it in too much.

It is too early to make a judgement on BMcD as a coach after just one season. However he has shown great strength of character and dignity through the difficult times, he kept faith in the way he wanted the side to play and improved the side so that they peaked at the right time. His much criticised selections proved inspirational and he brought on the youngsters and improved the performance of others eg Ryan Bailey. So I am very happy so far. Lets see if he can keep the continue with the improvements.

The Hall of Fame should be only for truly oustanding performance otherwise it is meaningless. If it is just about trophies then Bluey should be in, along with the assistant coach Et al.

JC. Bluey also had many injuries to contend with and a team that at times lost confidence he too blooded youngsters and the game against Cas after the England V France match proved as such.
He also had a an ageing team and players going off the boil and also had to adopt a different style of RL that still brought success.
Bluey had nowhere to go except down when he took over yet he kept us at the top for another 2 yrs and that deserves recognition.
Also Brian Mc did have a squad of very good players who played a lot of awful ,unstructered and ill disciplined RL at times last year but along with the team he did manage to turn it around you are far too easy in your support for Brian Mc whilst showing very little for a back to back Championship winning coach who also tasted success at international level.

I wonder how much weight should be given to the notably public comments of senior Leeds players regarding McClennan's abilities?

Those came about after the 3rd year when it went sour i guess both sides could do with a change then plus there was nothing but praise when we were winning back to back titles and the WCC.

The same key players in the squad were 4 years older for Big Mac than Bluey.

The "awful, unstructered and ill disciplined RL" was inherited from the stuff we played in 2010 under Bluey.

Big Mac had to play the first half of the season without 2 of his key players and it took quite some time for them to get anything like there form back when they did return. The further injuries in the early part of 2011 were so bad that for one match we didn't have a recognised prop or perhaps one out of form one.

I am not "too easy in my support for Brian Mac" I think what he achieved under the circumstances speaks for itself. I also have acknowledged that Bluey deserves credit for his GF wins in taking over the top team in SL at the time but IMO this should not gloss over what was a decline in playing standards and discipline on his watch. I have no axe to grind as I thought Bluey always came over as a decent bloke.

I agree with this statement, but it needs to be qualified and put into perspective. Some may refer to this as [i"looking at the bigger picture"[/i rather than entering into a [i"Tony Smith is better than Bluey or vice versa"[/i p[ii[/issing contest.

Bluey did preside over a decline in general playing standards whilst at Leeds, however this decline has been mirrored by a general decline in playing standards in Super League and across all SL clubs as a whole and this is still an ongoing trend. On the issue of indiscipline as measured by the concession of penalties, Bluey's last two seasons witnessed a bucking the overall Super League trend in terms of percentage increase or decrease in penalties conceded.

In 2007, Smith presided over a 22.2% increase, Super League overall a 5.3% increase.
In 2008, Bluey presided over an 8.6% increase, Super League overall a 2.8% increase.
In 2009, Bluey presided over a 2.8% DECREASE, Super League overall a 2.0% increase.
In 2010, Bluey presided over a 3.8% increase, Super League overall an 11.7% increase.
In 2011, BMc presided over a 5.5% increase, Super League overall a 2.9% DECREASE.

Perhaps but it's also factually accurate.




I'm intrigued as to where this information can be found outside of the number crunchers at Opta. If you had them I'd expect you'd include them but you haven't.



Yes penalties can and often do lead to points, there is no disputing that but why would conceding a further ten metres for dissent be a critical addition to the problem? The original penalty was the issue, the dissent could have slowed the game allowing a vulnerable defence to organize. When Sinfield walks up to the referee to ask for clarification on an infringement it's as often as not a tactic to buy time for his side.

So you're saying penalties specifically for dissent increased under coach McClennan and decreased under coach McDermott?

Those will be interesting stats to see. Your perception (?) may be right but without the counts it's difficult to judge.



The stats will prove this point one way or the other. Do you know a website you can copy and paste them from?



The facts speak for themselves.

__________



Smith's last season in charge was 2007, Leeds finished the regular rounds in 2nd behind St Helens with a playing record of:

Played 27, Won 18, Drew 1, Lost 8, Pts For 747, Pts Against 487, Pts Diff 260, Comp Pts 37

They had no WCC game to interfere with early season, went out of the Challenge Cup at home to Wigan in round 5 and beat St Helens in the Grand Final.

That was the Smith legacy McClennan took over. Leeds finished the regular rounds in 2nd behind St Helens with a playing record of:

Played 27, Won 21, Drew 0, Lost 6, Pts For 863, Pts Against 413, Pts Diff 450, Comp Pts 42

That shows McClennan's Leeds winning more matches, scoring more points and conceded fewer, the seemingly obvious critique to make would be a side more entertaining to watch ball in hand and meaner in defence than the one McClennan had inherited.

They defeated Melbourne to win the WCC, went out of the Challenge Cup at the semi-final stage V St Helens and beat St Helens in the Grand Final becoming the first club in SL history to do the WCC/Champion double in the same season.

My posts simply stated that IMO standards declined under McClennan and our poor discipline was not improved. I had no agenda re one coach over the another. But in order to argue my point (which is only my opinion anyway), when challanged by tvoc and his rather odd way of contesting my point, I had to show that actual penalties awarded against Leeds increased under McClennan when compared with the tenure of Smith.

Yes indeed your stats prove that penalties overall in SL were on the increase, however this fact in no way alters or invalidates my point. Despite this increase in overall penalties what is clear is that when compared to the Smith era not only did we give away more penalties under Bluey but we rose up the penalty conceded charts when compared to the other teams. ie

I tend to agree with you regarding the overall playing standards. However there are exceptions. Warrington played some consistently entertaining and outstanding rugby in 2011 under coach Smith. IMO allowing too much messing around at the ruck area has added to the decline in entertainment value together with some poor standards from the officials.