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Quote: Andy Gilder "

Still, it's good to see your total inability to recognise facts even when laid right in front of your eyes extends beyond rugby league and into the wider world.'"


This.

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "
I am not a reader of the Express but last time I looked they are also not part of the official Leave campaign. In a free press they are entitled to give their comment as indeed does the Guardian too with its one sided views . If fear can be backed up with facts it is legitimate. I would suggest some of those Express headlines can be backed up with facts. '"


The rabid xenophobic right wing press is the mouth piece of the Leave campaign. Their hatred & bile led to the murder of a fine MP & mother. That leaves its leaders free to promise unattainable milk & honey. The Remain campaign do not have that free publicity. I loathe Cameron, Osborne & their neo-liberal economics with a passion, & generally do not believe a word that comes out of their gobs. I have family in Western & Eastern Europe, have travelled & volunteered a fair bit through Europe. I have more affinity with those Europeans & a belief they have a sense of social justice than I do with an Eton Oxbridge elite with an ideological hatred of the public sector, which is why I am will be voting Remain. Nothing to do with economics.

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Quote: craigizzard "If lining up with Johnson, Gove, Grayling, Patel, Duncan-Smith, Putin, Farage, Nick Griffin, Britain First, Katie Hopkins, Louise Mensch, Toby Young, George Galloway and all the rest of the who's who of Britain's crackpots, oddballs and racists isn't enough for people to reconsider whether they're wise to decide on a "Leave" vote, then the deaf-eared, fact-free propagandist ramblings of Juan should be enough to send them over the edge. Good work, Mr.Cornetto.'"


He's got to be a Remain agent. No-one can be that myopic.

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Quote: Andy Gilder "So when it comes to the economic argument, should I listen to Michael Gove (2:1 in English, career as a journalist) and Chris Grayling (2:1 in History, career in television production) or ten of the world's leading economists?


Well you have not prudently done your homework very well examining the prominence of the lead "nobel winning" economist Sir Christopher Pissarides have you? He once passionately believed in the single currency and was instrumental in getting his homeland of Cyprus to join the Euro in 2008. In 2013 in an extraordinary change of heart he had to admit he was wrong and gave a lecture saying the Euro had created a lost generation and called for the Euro to be broken up.

He said that the EU "will get nowhere plodding along with the current line up of ad hoc decision-making and inconsisten policies. The policies pursued now to steady the Euros are costing Europe jobs and they are creating a lost generation of educated young people. This is not what the founding fathers promised"

So a 180 about turn from your main "expert". This highlights my point that economics is not a science and predictions and projections from economists are more wrong than right. therefore to blindly take what any of these groups of economists say as gospel and somehow give weight to Project Fear is a nonsense. That people, including youself, are influenced by the so called expertsand without question is plain to see from your post and if this forms a basis for voting to remain then Project Fear has worked.

Apart from questioning the record individual or group of economists you also have to look where their pay or funding comes from to check out impartiality as in many cases they are guns for hire. In the case of Professor Pissarides his employer, the LSE, receives generous funding from the EU too.

As I say economists are crystal ball gazers and the voter should make his mind up on the facts not the fiction.

Ask yourself if we were not a member of the EU would you join now?

Would you prefer that the UK democratically elected parliament is fully responsible for 100% of UK affairs? Or do you prefer the unelected Eurocrats from 27 other countries to have a major say in our affairs?

Would you prefer that our supreme court of justice has the final say on UK judgements of law? Or the judges in Luxembourg?

Would you prefer we are allowed to make our own trade deals around the world or do you prefer we leave it to 27 other countries with 27 other interest to consider?

Would you prefer we have the control of the whole gross amount of our contribution we make to the EU or are you happy to leave it to the Eurocrats and keep paying the huge net contribution?

Yes there are risks to leaving but there are equal risks to staying in such a flawed and failing political group.

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Quote: craigizzard "Not Project Fear as much as Project Hate.

Meanwhile I think the chlorine has gone to Juan's head with his 'so called experts' rant.'"


You cannot offer an aurgument against what I said though can you?

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Quote: Andy Gilder "They are preying on the insecurities of small-minded xenophobes who believe Britain is "full".'"


I'm voting stay but I am fed up of the 'Remain' voters dismissing and looking down on Leave voters with an almost snobbish contempt. Constantly bring up names such as Farage in some sort of way to shame a Leave voter. Even the JK Rowling article posted earlier was her ripping into Trump with plenty of disparaging terms used to describe him and then saying he's in favour of leave and thus tying leave voters with the same brush as those words she used to describe him.

Like I said I'm voting to remain but the attitude of many remain voters towards leave voters has been embarrassing trying to ridicule and belittle them.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "ignoring expert opinion because it can't be 100% proven and listening to passionate salesmen blaming them and selling you a rosy future is how people end up refusing chemotherapy and treating cancer with crystals

Leave is asking me to ignore the experts because if we all just believe hard enough it will all turn out great.

Frankly I stopped believing in fairytales a long long time ago and I have no respect for those who continue to pedal them to vulnerable people for their own benefit'"


But you refuse to accept the very poor prediction record any of these so called experts have?

OK so you are not an optimist and you do not believe in our ability to make a success outside the EU yet you do believe the fairtales od doom and armageddon! icon_frustrated.gif

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Quote: Gotcha "Right from the start I have been undecided, and swung one way then the other. But recently I have read up on everything, and although still in my heart I go one way, and in my head the other.

What I do know is what you have put above, is coimplete and utter nonsense. From everything I have read the only fear campaign in this referendum has been from the Leave side. Nothing positive or truthful for that matter has come out of that side, just gimmicks and soundbites that catch attention. I certainly have my issues with Europe and some of the things with the remain side, but they have at the very least laid facts on the table, and stuck to how it works. On that basis, I have no choice, for the sake of my family, and the employees under me to go with what is coming loud and clear in the head, rather than the heart.'"


So please explain which of the negative Remain points I listed above are accurate and why?

Also please quote me the Remain positive message because I must have missed it.

What are the negative or untruthfull things the Leave campaign have said?

Do you really believe the Remain campaign has not spread fear?

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Not talking strictly about the EU, but why when making an important decision would you ignore a whole raft of experts, yet fully take on board the opinion of a non-expert with a clear ideology/agenda?

Seems pretty stupid.

I mean, if you were to get a £40k extension on your house, you would get your mate Bob (who's an accountant, but did a ok job of repointing his wall a few years ago) down the road to draw up the plans, or would you get an architect?

In our daily lives we rely on experts with a vastly superior knowledge on the subject than we have to help us do what's best, yet in one of the biggest decisions you'll ever make, you've decided they chat a load of b0ll0cks and you'll trust a load of politicians with dubious agendas and political records? Where's that banging against a brick wall emoticon gone?

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "But you refuse to accept the very poor prediction record any of these so called experts have?

OK so you are not an optimist and you do not believe in our ability to make a success outside the EU yet you do believe the fairtales od doom and armageddon! I'd take the Doctor with the highest mortality rate, lowest ratings, lowest examination rates and worst diagnostic skills over the man selling me crystals every day of every week for ever more.

I'm not sure that 'nobody knows what's going on, all the peoplr who should know what is going on are lying to us so we should isolate ourselves and hope for the best' is a particularly optimistic outlook to be honest.

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "So please explain which of the negative Remain points I listed above are accurate and why?

Also please quote me the Remain positive message because I must have missed it.

What are the negative or untruthfull things the Leave campaign have said?

Do you really believe the Remain campaign has not spread fear?'"



You listed no points in the post I quoted. I specifically quoted your comment that the leave campaign has been postive, which is utter nonsense, and that the remain campaign has been project fear.

I was even very cleary in stated I had issues with the remain side and Europe, but whether your biased view is unable to comprehend this or not, the remain campaign have stuck to facts and how it works. Whether you don't agree with that, is irrelevant, as you are not in a positiion to dissagree with it. What I have seen from the leave campaign is totally the opossite and is ful of lies and catchy lines to reel people in under false promises. To add to this it has centred around immigration, which quite frankly although an issue, is not the be all and end all of this countries future.

I don't believe they have spread fear no, I believe they have stated what they think will ultimately happen should we leave.

Like I said, if you read all the facts out there with an open mind, and not the biased rags or politicians of either side, then the message of what is ultimately the right way comes across loud and clear.

But I do agree with a comment from Printer, and do think whatever people decide should be respected as their opinion on the matter.

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "You cannot offer an aurgument against what I said though can you?'"


I've been offering arguments for pages and pages, you simply don't listen to them.

You use all arguments as a game to make counter-points based on twists and omissions and slants to back up your original dreamt-up theories. This is entirely consistent whether you're talking about politics or economics or rugby league.

Show me an example in your 4000+ posts on here on any topic where you've ceded even the smallest point away from your original fixed ideas.

Pointless.

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For me this vote tomorrow isn't all about money and jobs. It's more about democracy and being responsible for our own destiny and making our own laws and rules. Many people died fighting for the democracy we all now take for granted. Don't throw it away and become ruled by the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Vote LEAVE

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Quote: xparksider "For me this vote tomorrow isn't all about money and jobs. It's more about democracy and being responsible for our own destiny and making our own laws and rules. Many people died fighting for the democracy we all now take for granted. Don't throw it away and become ruled by the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Vote LEAVE'"


To be ruled by the unelected House of Lords and unelected Head of State? Nice one, sign me up to that.

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Quote: Doom&Gloom Merchant "To be ruled by the unelected House of Lords and unelected Head of State? Nice one, sign me up to that.'"

But your fine to be governed by unelected politicians in the EU!!

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