I would agree. I like the fact we're not self-indulgent, flag hugging idiots.



That wasn't my point though. My point was, whether you like the fact that's how we are or not, do you think it could be something to do with the reason we're not as competitive on the world stage?



What I'm saying is we can't have it both ways. Either... we're polite, and reserved, and not in-your-face, and thus lose at sport. Or we're loud, "wooping and hollering" idiots, that breed generation after generation of winners.

In my opinion it isn't the "wooping and hollering" that is the problem it is things like EU laws and Political correctness. Both aus and us have none of this, we tell our kids it not about winning at school, no winners prizes at sports day, everyone wins for trying.

The whole attitude is wrong since when had wanting to win been a bad thing?

We do just pander to people at my friends work someone had apparantly complained wearing a poppy they found it a bit racist, like some of the staff wearing a England football shirt on sport relief day at his work was also complained as being potentially racist.

Of course, England's failure to compete with Australia and New Zealand is entirely down to the curvature of bananas and not being able to call someone a Paki any more.



What a fine, eloquent point you make.

I kind of agree. We have lost what it is to be English. And no this does not mean bendy bananas and racial slur words. Americans celebrate their national identity without the need for use of any derogatory words

Oh aye, the Deep South is well known for its celebration of the cultural diversity that makes the USA what it is.



Still not entirely sure how the supposed loss of a set of completely unquantifiable traits means it's harder to learn how to pass a ball or tackle properly mind...

Ferdy just seems like a harmless kid (hope I'm right)...not sure what localsuperhero's excuse might be,

I was interrupted whilst at work. Kinda rushed my response and lost train of thought. Damn me for being so professional!?!



What I was saying is (I think) that we are diluting our passion as a nation by pandering to so many outside influences. We struggle and are sometimes afraid to be proudly 'English' in case we are thought of as a bigotted lout, this in turn can lead to apathy over national pride.



Oh and if you read my post I never mention anything about the current issues in Rugby League, was just identifying with Ferdy's point that we don't get behind our international sportsmen in the same way other countries do and we accept a gentlemanly 'taking part is good enough' attitude.



As for the Deep South comment, you brought up the use of the word 'Paki' as one of your traits of being English lost to political correctness. This has nothing to do with patriotism, which can be celebrated, as in America, without any sort of racism.



As for the problems in Rugby League, there is no quick fix. The basics, i.e. kicking, passing, running, tackling, etc., need to be taught to a good level at grass roots, before the kids are even anywhere near the NRL. This starts with better input into schools. Rugby Union appears to give kids good basics and in the past Rugby League has been lucky enough to poach a few of them, many of the best outside backs in our sport have come through the early years in Rugby Union, Offiah, Devereux, even Senior. These Rugby Union imports have dried up due to professionalism and the money available in that code and we are now seeing trade going the other way with our better talents earmarked for scouting by yawnion clubs. It's alright sending a few players into schools as community development, but until we have good solid teaching in PE of the basics and find a way to channel that through into a solid junior system with good quality coaching and scouting systems that are happy to wander from the beaten path we will be struggling with similar issues.

International Rugby League will never compete with International Rugby Union, no further argument there.



As for the patriotism, take a look at the crowd at your average International fixture at Twickenham, Murrayfield or the Millenium and ponder a while at all of the national shirts on display and try and find factions of individual club team shirts - then compare to your average rugby league international and view the overwhelming individual club team shirts, listen to the booing as your own country's players touch the ball (if they play for the team you "hate"icon_wink.gif, and you'll have part of the answer as to why RL can never hope to compete with RU on the international stage.

I watched 2 live games today with an England side.



The game where England lost was far more enjoyable

None of the four nations games this year have been entertaining compared to the England rugby union match today. I even found Australia v New Zealand this morning a bore and that should’ve been a cracker of a game.

I did, yesterday, and had a cracking time. The game wasn't the best, but the atmosphere was fantastic, especially in the last 15-20 minutes when England threw off the shackles and started playing.

the ex-RL lads did well, Ashton for us, SBW & Brad Thorne for them.

But the most dangerous & entertaining players on the pitch were Foden for us & Hosea Gear for them.

What about Shontayne (un)Hape?



I only saw 20 minutes but enough to re-affirm my view that all video referees (bar Ian Smith) are pretty average in world rugby (either code)

Didn't do much, but it also shows that RU also suffers from a lack of quality centres if a Kiwi & a slow has-been are the best we can do. So not simply an RL problem.

Size has sadly overtaken skill as being the primary requirement for northern hemisphere centres.



Promising young players like Olly Smith and Anthony Allen have had the flair coached out of them at club level and turned into battering rams instead.