You might be right.....and I'm the first to admit none of the Leeds contingent (for whatever reason) did not cover themelves in glory. However, the basic fundamental question I always ask is would you want the respective individuals playing for your own club side.

Those that state they would not Hardaker, Watkins or Hall in their team are lying. Personally, of this winning non Leeds English contingent I would covet only [iBateman[/i (but not as a bluddy centre), [iWilliams[/i (because we know he can produce the goods at Stand Off, and for sure, rather him than the hugely disppointing Widdop - I have yet to see anything I would covet above our very own Sutcliffe for example), [iRoby[/i, [iGraham[/i, and the [iBurgess [/ibros.

MCGildary played well enough, but is not worth displacing Briscoe for; simlarly Smith is without a doubt no better than McGuire. Hill and Cooper are decent players, but not worth displacing Cuthbertson or Garbutt for IMO.

Then as for the apparent first choice English second rowers...pfftt! Give me Stevie Ward or Ablett anytime. On his Catalan performances I would once have coveted Whitehead, but less so on these England performances.

So that's Bateman, Williams, Roby, Graham and the Burgess bros. Can't say the rest of the England contingent have had me drooling in any way whatsoever. Even the apparent Man of the Series is not worth upseting the Leeds applecart for.

It has been an untidy winning series against an average-at=best NZ team, but I guess we should be happy for small mercys. It will go down as an historical win. Not convinced though for much more from this present set up.

Hall did what he could. Had nothing to work with in the oppositions half so left him doing his role of extra forward taking carries away from our line to give the forwards a breather.

He did this role well and in the first two tests he got little help from his other winger.

Nice feeling isn't it

Quote: jonh " Watkins I though was poor in defence as well. The first Kiwi try was his poor play that created the opportunity. He showed his opposite number the outside using the touchline as his extra defender and then allowed him to cut back inside him. As I said it's great seeing him tear SL apart but he simply has not delivered in an England shirt despite the hype he is given.'" except that just isnt what happened. Watkins didnt show his opposite number the outside, Watkins had to cover the man on the outside, the inside man was clearly Smiths man. If Watkins commits to Kahu the ball goes wide and Nightingale is in acres of space with men on the inside. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9LFwybZ4GA Watch that again and see your wrongness. There is a clear and obvious reason we conceded that try that is over any individual errors (o'loughlin giving up, Smith not effecting a tackle twice, McGilveray's positioning and decision to come in, apparently Watkins not committing to Kahu and leaving the man on the outside in space), We were short stacked and slow to get back so they stacked that side and executed pretty well.

Quote: jonh " Watkins I though was poor in defence as well. The first Kiwi try was his poor play that created the opportunity. He showed his opposite number the outside using the touchline as his extra defender and then allowed him to cut back inside him. As I said it's great seeing him tear SL apart but he simply has not delivered in an England shirt despite the hype he is given.'" except that just isnt what happened. Watkins didnt show his opposite number the outside, Watkins had to cover the man on the outside, the inside man was clearly Smiths man. If Watkins commits to Kahu the ball goes wide and Nightingale is in acres of space with men on the inside. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9LFwybZ4GA Watch that again and see your wrongness. There is a clear and obvious reason we conceded that try that is over any individual errors (o'loughlin giving up, Smith not effecting a tackle twice, McGilveray's positioning and decision to come in, apparently Watkins not committing to Kahu and leaving the man on the outside in space), We were short stacked and slow to get back so they stacked that side and executed pretty well.

England's best centre was Bateman on Saturday which rather highlights how poor was the performance from Watkins. Was it nerves or a lack of concentration? You can only earn the tile of being world class by proving it in big games including the international stage.

Watkins has been great this year. Lets look on bright england still won, his defence has been good over the series and poor game yesterday won't get the nrl or union teams knocking the door down

It's been a while since England have been able to have so many players supposedly not living up to their potential but still manage to win a series.

To be fair, Watkins has produced in all the big games this season, and he's been solid and shown glimpses of his talent for England. So the notion that he only looks good against the likes of Wakey is inaccurate.

Love how the usual Wigan idiots have got some digs in. International season gives them a chance to vent and gain back some ground after another season of falling short. It makes them sleep a little better after how gutted the 2014/15 seasons have left them. I only know one pie who is a total champion bloke and he is not even from Wigan. Most appear to be bitter single minded bell ends.

Watkins doesnt have to cover the centre at all in fact he expressly shouldnt commit to the centre, because that creates space on the outside leaving nightingale in acres of space with men on his inside. Watkins commits to Kahu and that ball goes outside to Nightingale, back inside to Luke and he walks over.

Watkins defended that brilliantly, his positioning meant that Kahu had to come inside where Smith should have executed the tackle, and had offload to Luke which was by far the most difficult option.

Had Smith executed the tackle on HIS man, that try doesnt get scored, had O'loughlin not given up the chase he would have tackled luke and that try wouldnt have been scored, Had McGilvary covered his man (i.e done what Watkins did) then Luke would have had to beat Hardaker to get over and that try would likely not have been scored. All of those were only options because of Watkins not committing to Kahu. But they were also very very difficult for England to do, and NZ executed brilliantly. None of those would have been necessary had the entire defensive line not been so out of position.

It isnt a point that is really up for debate, its a nonsense idea that Watkins should throw himself at the centre when there is a defender on his inside and an overlap on his outside. Its an idea someone would only put forth if they were scratching and searching for some kind of back up to their ridiculous position.

Watkins dropped a lot of ball in slippery conditions. It happens, His ball retention isnt his greatest skill. He also got outside his man a few times, he made space on his inside a few times, he defended well covering a couple of times for a winger on his debut who wasnt used to the swing defence he was been asked to play.

As for looking average in previous internationals, did you not watch see the angle of his run when going over in the WC semi? Breaking 3 tackles to go over against the aussies in the 4 nations last year?

Mate you are right but why bother? His comments are totally agenda driven.

It was a number of factors for that try.

Firstly we commit 3 guys to the tackle and they don't dominate the ball carrier which leaves Roby scrambling back in defence whilst the ball is already being passed from dummy half.

Secondly to compound it both Tom Burgess and O'Loughlin are too slow to realise we were short on that side. It was 7 NZ players to 2 so both Watkins and Smith were on a hiding to nothing. It was a similar problem on the previous play with 8 NZ guys against 4 England guys but the NZ ball carrier just ran it up instead of spreading it wide.

After the break then McGillivery shouldn't be coming in to get a guy who Hardaker could get and made it an easy decision to pass to the try scorer. When Hardaker did a post match bit with Jon Wells he talked about how he likes to back off and give the attacker more time to think instead of making the decision for him and it allows his fellow defenders more time to come help out. If McGillivery hadn't bolted over straight away it makes life much harder to score that try with Hardaker and Widdop coming across.

Interesting if you watch the replay of the try from the camera angle from behind the posts. Just as the NZ player is breaking Smith's tackle, O'Loughlin just has a little pull on the back of one of the New Zelanders shirt that halts that Kiwi adding to the NZ numbers in support.

Wonder what Wigan fans think of O'Loughlin trying to pull on the shirt of a support player?

Quite! Massive slice of double standards coming up!