BJB and Watkins both made their debuts under McClennan yet it wasn't until McDermott came that he made them first team regulars.....the 2010 season saw Smith and Delaney on the right side. Likewise Hall only became a regular in 2009 and would've missed out on the GF if McClellan could've pick his preferred back line of Webb/Donald/ABLETT/Senior/Smith.....so it wasn't only McDermott who opted to move Ablett instead of trying a youngster. I also remember JJB getting quite a few starts at prop under Tony Smith.

And regarding BJB who was his coach at Quins when he went out on loan?

If McDermott left tomorrow would he get credited for giving Hood, Singleton and Keinhorst their debuts if the become future first teamers or would some on here credit his successor and claim McDermott would've ruined their careers?

How many academy lads that were ESTABLISHED first teamers ended up thinking the grass was greener or other reasons left under previous coaches? Calderwood, Walker, Mathers, Scruton, Smith, Tansey, Diskin....all of whom are still SL level players?

Who has left under McDermott.....only Burgess and he was always Sydney bound.

The most important thing we've done SO FAR with regards to academy lads is that the ones who have become first teamers over the last several years like Ablett, Hall, BJB, Watkins, Ward are still at our club. We still have ones like Clarkson and McShane who struggle to get minutes still here whilst over at Wigan they're about to lose key ones in Tomkins (following on from his brother) and Mossop and Hock and maybe even Hansen too.

Wigan have needed to introduce more academy lads than Leeds because they've lost more first teamers from their GF and CC successes less than 3 years ago than we have from our GF winning 17 from 2007 which was over 5 years ago.

£20 I believe, and for that you get to stand on the world famous Western Terrace with nothing but fabulous Yorkshire skies above your head. No need to worry about sitting in a reserved seat or even having a good view of the pitch or screen. The Western Terrace caters for all you needs.

Maybe a bit of poor phrasing by myself, I should have been a bit clearer that part of that judgement of quality is going to be on the potential for developing in to that player.

My point is a little different to how you have interpreted it, in that there is no point us attempting to blood a player who isn’t going to be up to that level and for the most part we are doing very well at it. That’s why can see Watkins coming in to replace Senior as Leeds premier strike centre, and Ash Gibson is playing for Salford, it’s the reason why Zak Hardaker is replacing Webb and Lee Smith is at Wakefield, Why Clarkson is coming on nicely as a real workhorse in the back row and Jay Pitts is on the fringes at Hull. We aren’t trying to produce SL quality players, We are trying to produce good SL players if not internationals, preferably players of the calibre they are replacing. This is going to necessitate that some good, young players, some who stand out at youth level, some who would be banging on the door for first team regularly for most SL clubs wont get in to the Leeds side and will move on and have a decent career elsewhere. That isn’t a bad thing, its just this squad we have right here, right now, have and are producing some extraordinary results, they are creating an extraordinary legacy and if a player wants to be part of that, if he wants to continue that legacy, he needs to be extraordinary. If he isn’t, then its not a bad thing they aren’t playing for Leeds,

And in that context we are doing an absolutely outstanding job, Hardaker, Watkins, Hall, are absolutely top drawer players. I would go as far as to say each, in their own right, have the potential to become the best British player, in their position, produced during the SL era. Hall is probably already the best british winger of the SL era. Ward has the potential to be the next Paul Sculthorpe (hopefully without the injuries)

You're falling into your rhetoric again here "nonsense" "head in the sand". It's just bluster to fog actual debate with words to suggest that the only path to disagreeing with your point is stupidity or ignorance. You have actually gone on to construct and actual argument. Why not just rely on that?

Leaving that aside, what you're saying isn't inconsistent with a lot of what most people say. Giving 4 or 5 games to a promising young player and building up is what we've always done. The trouble is that some people seem to expect these kids to graduate the academy at 19 or 209 and walk straight into a regular first team spot.

How confident are you that Sutcliffe, for instance, won't manage 3 or 4 games this year by the time all is said and done?

Sinfield, to use a popular example of a player who has (I think we can agree) been a successful product of our academy, made his debut 3 games from the end of the 1997 season. By the end of the following season he had racked up an impressive 3 first team appearances.

My point is that there's no rush.

I am also dubious about the benefits of resting players who are not injured. There are wear and tear injuries that can occur, but my view is that you should treat them as injuries. These don't follow a planned programme, and arbitrarily resting players doesn't necessarily help. Without injuries you can physically keep a pretty high level of physical intensity up and focus on bringing it to a peak at key points. In my more serious running days I could happily do 10-12 half marathons a year at a pretty good lick, and 3 or 4 marathons. I'd always have a handful of those races that I'd really target to produce my very best, but still score good points for my club in the others. As with RL, the only thing that hampers that is an injury. You can get wear and tear injuries during light training too.

It's always been the case that young up-and-comers get their first chances because of injuries to established players (or occasionally in early rounds of the Cup if the draw is kind). That's how most of our home-grown stars got their first chances. If players like Sutcliffe and Ward are good enough, their chances come.

Great post

Big challenge tonight for our senior players, I think saints fancy there chances tonight on the basis we have injury problems. Also they are due a good result after a losing streak. It all makes for an extremely interesting contest.

We did bounce back from similar disappointments this year though quite well....
WCC then beat Saints away
Hudds at home then beat Wigan
Drew with Bradford then beat Catalans

Think we need to get Moon and Hall more into the game, we haven't really seen much from that side in the last two games. If we do then i'll think we'll be able to score enough to see off a Saints team lacking quality in the halves.

Spot on regarding moon, he has the makings of a top class centre. At the moment I don't think we seem to be using him enough. Or even giving him a decent service,some of the ball he has received lately has been poor.

Why the Hell we didn't fully utilise Moon and Hall when we were a man up at Hudds is beyond me.

If we had things might have been different. They have the potential to be a devastating partnership but not if their getting ignored if favour of endlessly throwing tired props up the middle.

I don't think we do as we still have Robes and Lomax among others missing ourselves, and we still have no halfbacks. Most Saints fans appear to be somewhat pessimistic about our chances tonight, actually. Can't think why.

Numerical advantage or not, you still have to build a platform. That seemed to be disrupted by Crabtree scattering Rhino bodies around the pitch, in both attack and defence.

Not just the Hudds game (which you can give a lot of credit to their defence for) but even against a Bradford team who made some poor efforts in defence and who we scored 40+ points past.....i can't remember seeing too much of them in the opposition half.

I thought earlier in the year we went to moon and hall too much and vastly under used Watkins

Spot on. Even the usual suspects should be able to grasp this.

Good luck to Sutcliffe tonight. The coaches have had him around the first teamers for a while now to settle his nerves and have shown excellent responsibility in preparing him for his introduction to the big time,