The blame has to rest with GH for this IMO.

At the time of appointing BMD and JL, it looked a mind-blowingly bad decision. It was celebrated by supporters of rival clubs. It just seemed to be absolute nonsense.

It has proved as big a disaster as it promised to be - that is GH's fault as far as I'm concerned, they were ludicrous appointments.

Why do you struggle with this so much?

What people have said, me continuously at the time, was that we should have rebuilt in 2009 for the 2010 season, and most certainly at the beginning of 2010 for the 2011 season.

Rebuilding is not for the season you are competing in, but for the next season. Players do not often move midseason, but only for the start of new seasons. We should have been planning the necessary changes for 2010 in 2009, simple as that.

He actually intimated that the only reason we got Murray was because his wage was subsidised, not that Murray did not have NRL experience.

He was right on that. Do you really think Murray would have been here had there not been a subsidy?

I have said all season, the likes of Mcguire, Peacock, Burrow, Buderus, Webb, do not go rubbish overnight, id go as far as saying your poor season is completely down to awful coaching, he has to go.

We are a team who are badly lacking structure and above all confidence. While time has marched on for quite a few of our "stars" they are capable of putting in a shift better than what they displayed on Sunday. I think the problems are a combination of poor recruitment, bad coaching and a certain whiff of apathy from players. All can be fixed but we do seem to be going for the stick instead of the carrott option at the moment.

Indeed, absolutely. Webb has not been the same player since 2008. Burrow has not been the same player since 2008. McGuire has just come back from a serious career threatening injury, and has only played six games. Peacock has only just come back from a serious career threatening injury, and is at an age where anyone would decline. Buderus is still putting in outstanding performances, so don't really undertand the relevance of that.

The coach may well be awful, almost certainly. But let's not scrape the barrell here with making out these players above would be putting in better performances with a different coach.

Do you think Maguire has got better performances out of the same Wigan players than Noble?

Noble was also a far better coach than BMD, so it's not too difficult to extrapolate that a top coach (Maguire) would get more out of this Leeds team than a painfully average one (BMD).

Maguire took the same players and put in systems that made them play at a massively increased intensity. They are relentless and their attitude to the game is worlds away from the good one week, terrible the next rabble they looked in previous years.

Yes, the Leeds players should perhaps look themselves in the mirror and up their performances. But a good coach would FORCE them to do that, rather than reel of meaningless platitudes.

Average? your been generous there.

No, he actually ranted about several things, none of which made any sense.

Agree with the above, thought we started to look a bit more organised against Wigan but that tonight was shocking. No structure, confidence or anything that looks like a game plan. For me though a few players are putting it in. I thought ablet has been putting in the effort and manages to look fairly good out of position in a poor team

I thought Jones-Buchanan and Buderus were the only Leeds players that put the effort in that is required and still looked like they give a fook.

I thought JJB was very impressive yesterday, have a lot of time for him as a player. Not one to shirk when the going gets tough.

Buderus played hard but had some errors and bad options in his game.

No, I don't really. Maguire saw the benefit of the Tomkins brothers coming of age together with a fit Deacon, and the emergence of a couple of other young talents.

Yes, he improved their attitude and their hunger, but I am not convinced the structure, game plan, and skills were "far better" as you put it. The difference at Leeds is we already had players who had done it all, had lost the hunger, and were much older than the team Maguire took on. That's why I don't see that huge shift should another coach take over these same players. We need a new coach, that's without argument, but just don't kid ourselves on the players.

The odd error I'm prepared to overlook if the player concerned looks bothered by them.

I try and catch the substitutions and note how they re-enter the field as a signal of their intent. Some player's sprint in to position others saunter.

Then we are never likely to agree, because the difference was monumental IMO.