Just so we are clear the post was aimed at the OP and his questioning of certain fans opinions re-coaching and the criticism on his tenure and the problems the team are clearly having.
Where have i said we CAN change anything?? other than offereing constructive views on how we se the team.
As paying fans we have the right to air our views and offer differing opinions on how we see the game ,club ,team etc etc afterall it's a RL forum of which this one in particular is mainly for Leeds fans.
"Big deal" it may be to you but some care more than that and are looking for improvements from the team that is better than what they are producing and there's much more depth of opinion than just "wielding the axe" prematurely.
If you don't give a flying one then fair enough that's your opinion but that won't stop others offering theirs either no matter how pathetic your response is.

Fair enough. It's easy for me to have a detached attitude given where I live (well, normally - actually I'm in Bradford at the moment and going to Monday's game...).

Hi rhinoms,

Sorry for my lack of reply over the weekend – busy one! I think I’ve already answered pretty much all of your questions in my previous posts but I’ll go through them again for you.

To answer your first question about senior players, I would initially point you towards last season. The way we played for the majority of last season was totally unprecedented (much like now), but ultimately the players came good for us, and I trust them to do the same this year. We also have to bear in mind the consequences of dropping a senior player, for example, if this player is a confidence player, how will this affect the rest of his season? Yes, in a team sometimes it is necessary to drop one for the sake of the others, but I think that it’s right to show a certain amount of faith when we know what they are capable of. The other thing you need to bear in mind is who you bring in in that player’s place; if it’s a young player, we need to make sure that we look after that player’s needs too.

In terms of defensive structure, how do we know that this is not being worked on intensively in training? I discuss in my original post that missed tackles, knock-ons etc are NOT the fault of the coach.

How long before it’s reasonable to question the coach? When has he EVER not been questioned?! Many of the fans started to question Mac almost as soon as the 2011 season began. I have no problem with questioning the overall performances, but explain what I think the problem is in my original post.

When you talk about aging props, I can only assume you mean Jamie Peacock, as Kylie Leuluai has been great for us, as has Richard Moore. Maybe JP needs to be rested, but in previous posts I’ve talked about the confidence that could be gained from a good performance against ANY team, and maybe Mac feels that he would benefit from being a part of that.

When I talk about good performances against Cas, Wakey and London I talk about them in the context of gaining a bit of confidence (obviously we didn’t get that on Monday). On their own, they might paper over the cracks, as the performances in last 65 minutes of the Challenge Cup Final, against Wakey at home last year and against Huddersfield away last year might have, but those performances gave us a good platform for the play-offs and the Grand Final. The losses against Wigan and Saints this year have been disappointing, but as I’ve already mentioned in previous posts, we were competitive against Wigan away (with one eye on the World Club Challenge), and for 60 minutes against Saints at home. I think it’s pretty unfair to say we didn’t challenge them, unless you are only looking at the headlines from the Saints away and Wigan at home games.

I do not agree that the criticisms of Mac have more evidence to back them – many people have questioned my detailed defence at the start of this thread, but few (including yourself) have actually backed up with any evidence. The criticism of the performances at the moment are valid, but I have explained very articulately that I think they are mis-directed. I don’t think anyone could accuse me of burying my head in the sand either, but seeing as none of us are actually in any position to do anything, the only thing we can do is hope things come good.

In terms of everyone else’s comments – Fat Boy, can you tell me who you think is being played out of position? I’ve gone into detail on Rob Burrow to hooker (he’s miles better there), Danny McGuire has always been able to play 7 as well as 6, and this isn't the first time we're seeing Kevin Sinfield play at 6 (of course, he can play at 9 too).

DHM – you make some really fair comments. To those who put so much emphasis on track record, I would point them to Ian Millward – we all know what happened at Wigan when he went there, and of course what’s happening at Cas. In my opinion, a good track record counts for nothing when you’re losing, and a bad one is a convenient stick with which to beat you!

doc-rhino – Like many others, I wasn’t initially thrilled at the thought of seeing Jimmy Lowes in our dressing room! But when I thought about it afterwards, they’ve both worked with many of the same people (Brian Noble when playing, Tony Smith when coaching – incidentally two of the names I’ve heard people calling for as new coaches), so I suspect that Jimmy was chosen because his philosophy is much the same as Mac’s.

rhinoms – I know this last post wasn’t for me, but I wouldn’t say that your questions offered constructive views. I agree that as paying fans we have a right to air our views but only to an extent – if they are constructive, yes, but booing and heckling a coach who has reached 3 Finals in one year, winning 2 of them, no, and in fact I’d go as far to say that this would not happen at any other Club in Superleague (if Royce Simmons had done this, he’d have been signing a contract extension at the end of February). As a SUPPORTer that’s exactly what I do, week in week out, win or lose – I SUPPORT. To me, that means caring enough to put together constructive criticism and/or defence, but still turning up and cheering on the lads every week. Whining and moaning does not mean you care any more than anyone else, it just means that that’s how YOU respond to the current situation.

Isn't the bottom line here that under McDermott London's league position regressed season (2007) after season (200icon_cool.gif after season (2009) after season (2010) and Leeds' league position has followed the same pattern (2011) and continues in that direction thus far in 2012.

Perhaps of more concern though (as League position can be sacrificed to some extent in pursuit of the bigger picture) Leeds' head to head results with the better SL clubs are becoming less competitive and we are now in danger of joining our good friends on Humberside as potential play-off cannon fodder?

While it's still the case that you cannot write off this group of Champion player's potential to produce something extraordinary on any given occassion it's not a formula likely to bring consistent success or a sound base for the club to build on, IMO. Even if McDermott gives of his best I don't think is best is good enough and judging by the level of performance it appears that neither do the players..

I think 'rhinowinorlose' has most eloquently answered all your points several times over and needs little help from me. It is so refreshing to have fellow positive poster to take on the negative brigade.

What you still seem to miss is that I have never been critical of your right to be critical. Neither am I blind to the poor performances of the team both last year and again this year. What I argue with is the unfair blame game that features in much of the critical comments and the lack of understanding the importance of loyalty in a team game.

Yes it is true many of the senior players are out of form and are showing their age. But is your only solution to sack the coach and drop all the out of form players and play a team of inexperienced youngsters not yet ready for regular SL? And what do you do when they too fail to beat the top sides.... drop them too and play the juniors? (No need to ask 'nantwich' on that score )

By the way for how many matches are you suggesting we drop the majority of the team which would include Sinfield, JP, Bailey and all? And having been dropped how would you suggest they regain their form? Or do would you transfer or retire the lot?

I do not follow the flawed logic that because our aging players have lost form it shows that the coach is not up to the job.

Some players need a rest while others need to play through the bad form and come out the other side sharper. The coaches tend to know this better than the spectators.

How quickly you forget and how quickly you become disloyal when the going gets tough. We suffered the same lack of form by the same players last year but the coach kept his faith and we were rewarded with yet another GF win. These same players and coaches carried this forward at the start of this year and won another WCC yet you jump on the "off with his head" bandwagon within a couple of months.

Your assumtion, that this same set of outstanding players and coaches suddenly know nothing of defensive structures is naive. I repeat this is sport and we have to accept the ups and downs of form and luck.

Having said this I too would have liked to have seen a quality signing or two but I am not privy to the facts on the availability or costs, so I cannot be too critical of the management.

I am quite sure there has been a lot of constructive criticism in the dressing room but also some patience and understanding and I am sure this group will understand the importance of loyalty in achieving success.

Maybe some of the seniors in the squad finally have reached the end of their top level careers but the side is current SL Champions and WCC holders so do you not think they deserve the chance to complete the season before making the decision to replace them?

The evidence to back my and others criticism is there in the shape of performances ,selection and the same old "lets hope for someone to do something special" approach.
I don't boo or heckle the coach or the team but i will call it how i see it and there's no to a "certain extent" about it.
Also "whining and moaning" is far from what we are doing on here most have come and pointed out how we've been so poor and why the same mistakes from the same players are been made week in week out.
IF we were all moaning and whining there'd be a woe is us tone and NO-ONE is saying we should be winning every game so again however you see it doesn't make others wrong for airing their views especailly when they are paying out their hard earned every week for the same old dross ,sound bites and cliche's.
Peacock is knackered as is Kylie and giving them both around an hour hasn't worked especially in the big games against the faster and mainly younger forwards that's a fact that we've all witnessed.
Sinfield is getting destroyed defending out wide again that's not an opinion it's fact everyone else has seen.
Lunt is not a BR again it's a fact.
You continue your defence for a failing coach and an out of form disjointed team living in the past good on you but whilst i'm paying to watch it i'll continue to raise my views and concerns about the direction where we are heading.
Finally HOW i support the team is my choice and certainly doesn't make my points less valid because you've got more excuses than Vicky Pollard to roll out.

You don't really need to defend yourself. I was one of the very few who backed the coach last season, mainly because I felt the players were at an end then. I now look back and can honestly say IMO it was a fluke, and players dug deep to prove a wrong with everything they had left inside them.

The two posters you are arguing with can have what ever opinion they like, but quite frankly they are talking out of their bottom. The only proof of that will come if we continue the way we are, which is what they are proposing we do. For any club that seeks success and a desire to be challengers it is posters like that, that hopefully the club will ignore.

All on the nose. Spot on IMO.

In JP's first carry against wakie he knocked on from a standard Burrow pass. JP laughed. I didn't find it in the slightest bit funny.

2 more years of JP and another benefit year for Kylie leaves me feeling a little empty inside.

As for Sinfield he has to be shifted back into the middle. He was a decent defender there, it worked like clockwork. Would never miss many. Out wide he'd make the tackle if he could get there but he's getting killed left, right and centre for pace.

Lunt is not a BR in the same was as Bails is not a loose. Get the right people in where they are most effective and the whole team benefits.

It's a good point about the ages of these players but I don't see advancing age as a reason to play them out of position.
Maybe that's not what you meant, it just reads that way?



Burrow is half a hooker.
He's OK (and only OK) with ball in hand and even then, apart from the scoot from the ruck, he plays it like a scrum half which is hardly surprising.
Defensively you need a more robust, bigger, haul-'em-down-all-day type (like Diskin was).
Personally, I think a mistake was made during Buderus' tenure in letting Matt Diskin go.
When Buderus was good he was very good, of that there is no doubt, but there were far too many first halves where he put in one good move in the whole 40 mins and then when Diskin came on the whole team lit up.

Sure, we've seen Sinfield at 6 before, far too often IMHO, just because he can make a fist of it when someone is injured doesn't make him a first-choice stand-off.
Sure, he can place the grubber or chip but he can do that from LF too.
Plus, at SO, he moves out to the centres in defence ... but we need him tackling in the middle.

McGuire can play scrum half, with that I agree ... but with him on one side of a specialist hooker and Burrow on the other we had a damn sight more attacking options.

To add to the list above.

Ablett is a second rower playing centre.
Bailey is a prop playing loose.
Hardaker... TBF we don't really know what his natural position is but it sure as Hell isn't a centre.
Lunt coming off the bench to pay at loose.

Oh... and Kirke playing anywhere.

Peacock and Burrow did the self same party trick at Warrington in the last game on two minutes, of course we were already six behind by that stage and twelve behind a couple of minutes later and already on the bus back home.

Just sometimes you've got to see the funny side otherwise you might cry instead. 'We're s[ihi[/it and we we know we are' type of thing.

I personally think that whats wrong with Leeds is a load of little things. Some are bigger than others. Nothing massive, but lots of them. From my view (which is limited like most on here) the coach is responsible for many of them, the CEO a few of them, and the players a few of them.
I don't think we should win every game, or even win something every season. I just would like to see us make the best (or close) of our lot. We are some way from that IMO

The coach is crap, the old players ( and Kirke ) are crap and the pink strip is crap and the south stand is crap....

Just saying