Which is more important ? The present coaching regime or the promising young lads ? For me that's the fundamental choice.... and there are no prizes for which of the two I would prioritise.

With the table so close from 2nd down to 8th, why would you deliberately weaken your side by picking players who are currently inferior to others in the same position?

If Singleton and Smith are that good right now, why isn't 5here a queue of SL clubs looking to take them on loan?

The only way we are deliberately weakening our side is the continuation of picking players like Hauraki and earlier in the season Kirke, using Clarkson as an "impact sub" and using JP and Kylie for an hour or more.
Both of the above have shown great form ala Ward in the U20's and whilst its good that they are on dual registrations in the championship neither would weaken us in fact in terms of the coach using the same players repeatedly barring a couple last friday they'd freshen us up and add more positives.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that comment.

We have been picking players for weeks who at times have been inferior to their oppossite numbers. I am not convinced that picking another youngster each week would in anyway weaken us to what we have been going with. The only way of determining whether that is correct is if those said players were given a shot.

Well it's only a game so not worth crying over.

Is it common practice to loan out such young players? Surely they should be developed here at Leeds better than anywhere else.
I posted this a while ago, but if Leeds as a club have a co-ordinated playing structure from junior to 1st team then players would transition best if they stayed within the club and learned that way. Part of that must be 1st team experience. We're not producing forwards at this club - none - Burgess and Scruton could have been two diamonds, but both felt they had to leave the club. We've loaned out two good young hookers to replace them by loaning in an average one - WTF? We haven't produced a good back row forward since Ablett - unbelievable.

Time for a bit of patience. I think that short term contracts for coaches encourage them to think about short term results and low risk selections and purchases. It's easy to loan out a young player and rely on weaker clubs to develop them and bring in a journeyman to "do a job". But if the likes of Widnes or any Championship team are so good at developing players then why are they so awful? Playing in a crap side with an average coaching setup is only going to encourage bad habits and sloppy play.

You want to give the better props (and they are better) like Leuluai, Peacock and Griffin periods of rest over the season and bring in youngsters/fringe players in their place. This both freshens the better props up while also giving an opportunity for the youngsters/fringe players to show what they can do and get experience.

Sadly, our coach doesn't seem to have realised this and has played pretty much the same tired, knackered pack so much over the season that they're getting mullered by half-decent opposition packs.

Players like Moore, Singleton and Kirke, while not world beaters, should have been played against teams like Wakefield and London and Castleford so when it comes to the big games the big players are at their best.

Post of the season? I couldn't agree more with this if I had typed it myself.

I'm going to defend the club here.

There was absolutely nothing the club could do to retain Burgess. He was going to Australia if only to clean Sam's boots for him. The whole set of brothers will be there soon.

The club tried to retain Scruton and offered him a fair contract. The Bulls, as we know, are much wealthier than us and offered him a deal he couldn't refuse. Clearly, we shouldn't be in the business of getting into a bidding war with a wealthy club like Bradford or we might find ourselves down a slippery slope to Administration.

Hood wasn't quite ready. His defence was poor. I suspect he will be a star but not just yet. Opinion is fairly split on McShane but to describe Lunt as average and Hood and McShane as good is a little disingenuous when Lunt has achieved international recognition and the others are still making their way in the game.

As for no forwards since Ablett I'd point out we've produced Clarkson. He hasn't kicked on the way some would have hoped after an exciting debut in 2010 but he's still young and you. ,yourself are preaching the virtues of patience so I am not willing to write him off yet. IMO, it's no coincidence his form has deteriorated under the present coaching regime who see him as an impact back rower from the bench rather than a workhorse to lay a platform.

We've also produced Stevie Ward who can, and has, play in the back row.

I don't know the ins and outs of Burgess and Scruton, I don't know how hard we tried to keep them, but if we wanted to encourage two players to leave and seek employment elsewhere then we did go about that the correct way. Both departures may have been innevitable but I tend to think that's bull$h!t. If you manage people right nothing needs to be innevitable.

I deliberately excluded Clarkson as he hasn't really made his mark yet or kicked on as you describe. I am not writing him off, but he's not in the place where you could say he's on the team sheet if fit. Stevie Ward is a back row forward in the way Burrow is a hooker. He can do a job at 13 but I think he's really going to fit in the halves at some point - he's very, very light to make it as second row.

I'd ask a question regarding Lunt, does he offer anything McShane hasn't put out for us when given the chance to settle for a few games? I think not. I think putting the guy who played 9 in our WCC win out to loan (and if stories are correct we would have offloaded him permenantly ) to a team that gets pummeled very week and is coached by Dennid Betts is hardly going to aid his development. Others obviously disagree with me - they may be right, they may not. But if Lunt goes back to Hudds next season then we are potentially left with Hood, who IMO should be developing at Leeds, not in the Championship where he can learn to make all the basic errors you can't make at SL level.

I'll say it again, we've not produced forwards that can dislodge the likes of Kirke, let alone challenge someone like JJB for too long now. Our academy should be one of the places where international standard forwards are produced yet we have in the last 2-3 years signed the likes of Griffin, Moore, Lunt, Hauraki, Cross, Pitts (now gone of course), Delaney (best of the bunch) and had the one player, Clarkson, break into the first team squad. And I agree with you he seems to be going backwards at a rate of knots, and I do believe he's got talent. He ran great lines back in 2010, he hit holes at pace and still packed in a ton of defence. It's all there.

so this thread has once again degenerated into the 'old players are , teenagers are awesome' fest that several posters like to have. Apparently we can judge Darrell Griffin (challenge cup finalist, england international, best forward on the pitch in the Hull game) inferior to Brad Singleton, based on the fact that singleton was ok in a couple of games last year, and does well playing against players younger than him.

Or maybe we could live in the real world. Yes, some of our players (i.e. Peacock) are shot to bits, yes some of them (Hauraki) have never really made the grade, yes some of them (Clarkson) don't seem to be kicking on like we hoped. That doesn't mean we haven't produced youngsters, who we've all sent elsewhere, it means we haven't produced youngsters of the right quality.

Luke Burgess, as was widely reported at the time, wanted to be in the first team ahead of Peacock & Leuluai. He was, rightly, behind Bailey, and sometimes behind Kirke, who performed the role he was picked for very well. BMD told Luke that he wasn't good enough to start ahead of those players yet, but that he would. That wasn't enough, and Burgess left. Given we won the SL without him, correct decision.

Scruton we wanted to retain, and offered a good amount of money for. Scruton chose to go to Bradford for more money. Remember that, at the time, we were supposed to be getting Eastwood in for 2009, and would have been running a front row of Peacock/Leuluai/Bailey/Eastwood/Burgess, and a second row of Jones-Buchanan/Lauititi/Ablett/Kirke. We offered him what we could afford to be 5th/6th choice prop. That wasn't enough, Bradford are now in administration, correct decision.

Here's some of the other forwards we've produced in the last couple of years, and where they are now:

Jason Golden (Wakefield & London)
Simon Worrall (Tolouse)
Danny Allan (Hunslet)

The one i do regret is Pitts, who we shouldn't have let go. Other than that I've seen no-one else, aside from Amor, whohas convinced me they'd be a significant gain or loss to us at the minute from the academy. Based on past form, the Sleeve & the coach have made the correct decisions. But those inclined can go and mourn our 5 titles, and remember with their rose-tinted glasses the Wayne McDonalds, the Tom Bushes, the Danny Allans of the Rhinos that might have been.

As for where we do go from here.

Peacock is shot. He no longer matches up to Griffin, as was very evident for those watching the game on friday, and is close to being overtaken by Kirke. Both Griffin & Kirke are players that, when given game time and a licence to attack, can make metres. The fact the coach has wanted them to do something else doesn't mean they are incapable. I'd expect Peacock to retire (or be retired) at the end of this season, with Griff claiming the number 10 shirt.

Leuluai is still doing it, but will be retiring next year. As such, we need to be identifying a replacement now, who we can bed into the squad next year, and take over at the end of 2013.

Bailey is doing well, playing some of his best rugby. No worries here.

Amor is doing well at Wakefield, I'd bring him back and give him a season to see if he can perform at the top level. If he can, great, if not, at 26 he's not going to improve, and we can let Wakey have him.

Moore & Kirke are both ok. Moore does good things some of the time, but is often anonymous, while Kirke, when he gets the game time, can be a very good prop. Coaches need to make a judgement call here, and retain one of them for next season, and free up a cap spot to bring in someone else, or for Singleton to get more game time.

Props for next year:

8. Leuluai
10. Griffin
16. Bailey
15. new signing (RN1F preference: Sam Moa)
17. Kirke/Moore
20. Amor
21. Singleton

In the second row, I think Ablett will be moving permanently back into the centres, leaving us with JJB, Delaney, & Hauraki. Now, Kirke could be moved back to the SR & given an attacking licence more often, or we could bring someone in. I'd like to see Smith get some opportunities, but at the same time we should be having a game-breaker somewhere in the side, in a way we've not had since Lauititi. Personally, Hauraki has never reached the heights we need, and spent way too much time on the treatment table, so I'd be looking to replace him. Clarkson, on the other hand, clearly has the game, but isn't playing well. If we can get him back to the form of 2010, he'll be a really good player. Also, JJB will be 32 end of next year, and again, we need to be looking at our options for replacing him in the long term.

Second row for 2013:

11. Jones-Buchanan
12. Delaney
18. Clarkson
19. New Signing (RN1F preference: Larne Patrick)
22. Smith

Apparently we can judge Darrell Griffin (challenge cup finalist, england international, best forward on the pitch in the Hull game) inferior to Brad Singleton, based on the fact that singleton was ok in a couple of games last year, and does well playing against players younger than him.

Who has said Singleton is better than Griffin??
As for having a "fest" the coach has made the point of fatigue in the camp more than once yet refuses to ROTATE the pack when its obvious to anyone watching they have been knackered not least the ones doubling up over easter and after the Exiles games.
Singleton is still very Young and is showing good form in championship whilst also been clearly way above anyone in HIS AGE GROUP as has D.Smith.
We've also just had 3 out of the last 4 games against teams much lower and missed a chance to give these young lads a chance and also a step nearer to been ready to step up.
Hauraki is a poor recruit ,if Moore plays well we still don't see him for weeks at a time the same with Griffin yet Kylie (who is also on his last Knockings) and JP are getting run ragged.
As for Kirke he did ok against Hull and London but in terms of first choice FR/SR if he is it then we are much worse than we should be because i'd happily take D.Smith and Singleton now ,thank Kirke and move him on.
Oh and before you go mention GF's etc that's been and done we need to look forward and start taking advantage of our acadamy system a bit more Darryl Powell did it and the time is just about here for "a new Breed" to take up the mantle.
If that means 2/3 year of no trophies then so be it as long as we have a clear plan and direction and trust these young lads to live up to their huge potential we'll be sound.
The difficult call was made re-Senior (maybe by default) and it was the correct one so lets continue that rather than have players 1 or 2 years TOO long cut 1 or 2 a bit early and give the next batch a go.
As for not producing of the right quality do the research the aforementioned are clearly of the right quality but our form ,desperation and lack of nadgers from the coach just haven't bloodied them fully yet.
Also Jordan Stewart joined with Singleton but has had a nightmare re-injuries he's just about ready to comeback and hopefully he'll regain full fitness and live up to his early potential because he could well be up there with Jjb imo.

Can you expand upon that? What did we do to encourage their departure?

With Scruton, did managing him right include matching his financial offer from moneybags Bradford?

I'd remind you that Burgess left (was released) part way through 2011. After his release the team went on to reach the Cup Final and win a Grand Final. I'd also remind you that the club have won at least one Grand Final since Scruton's release. So, neither were hardly integral to our success or otherwise.

I was disappointed to lose Scruton but please the man who holds the purse strings stuck to his valuation.

I didn't give two hoot about Burgess. I thought he was a very ordinary player who had clearly stated he intended to be on his way down under at the end of his contract. That he has managed to earn a place in Souths 1st time comes a a great surprise to me but good luck to the kid. I have higher hopes for Singleton based upon what I have briefly seen so far,

In terms of Burgess and Scruton i agree with G here i think the club could have done no more.
Both were good prospects and are decent imo but Scruton wanted more £££ than he was worth to us and LB wanted out and made that clear.