What's Alan Tait upto these days?

He is/was coaching Newcastle Falcons mate although going by their results he could soon be on the dole with Andy Key of Carnegie.

ta

If you include BJ Mather because he was a junior RU international, then would you also include the likes of Shaun Edwards and Richard Gunn (both dual code junior internationals IIRC)?

Because your original point had no time restriction yet you later introduced one, I can't think of one of those..'"

Forgive me not replying in kind but life's too short.

Re numbers of Internationals in bygone days, I was talking League numbers (we both were - why would I introduce numbers of Union Internationals played when I was talking what the player's achieved in League and whether those deeds were 'of note' as you put it.) I gave an example where Keith Fielding got the opportunity to play in far more than his equivalent would get today, answering that point.

I note you haven't taken the opportunity to back up your assertion that there are more comparable RL Internationals played today either. It's your point back it up with facts. Mick Sullivan in 10 years (1954 to 1963) played 46 Tests for GB. I make that 4.6 a year and that's even if he played in them all which I would find hard to comprehend any player doing. How does that compare?

I said I (that is Rothmans) could be an incomplete record (although Gentleman Jim is on the list) that is why I asked for a time when Holiday or Holliday (you've spelt it two ways so far) played International RL. It should be easier for you to prove something happened rather than I to prove it didn't (at least I've offered a source.) Just post the proof, quote a reference and we can put that one to bed.

To this point your Thomas Holliday bio consists of

None of that sounds to me like League talk. Was there an England RL team in the 20's?


Mather didn't gain a full England RU cap before joining league, no matter what you, or I or any number of good judges may say that is the fact and so cannot be included as a full England International before coming to League. How is that controversial.

Who then are your 5 ex-England full Internationals that crossed to League during a 40, sorry 30 year period 1970 to 1999 inclusive (an average of 1 every 6 years)

Even then it's such a low benchmark as to be almost an irrelevant statistics as a source of future potential RL talent especially when set against the Valleys an area completely foreign to the code where converts were forced to give up much more than their amateur status to make the switch.

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Of course you would (and countless others besides) but given the overwhelming bias given to RU in schools, even in the traditional RL heartlands, it would be a fairly meaningless point of reference.

Was top class schoolboy RL available to these youngsters growing up, was it promoted by the staff, was there the infrastructure to encourage participation.

From my own experience it was Union or nowt when it came playing Rugby, albeit that was in Pudsey and were all a little bit posh coming from there (we even have our own world famous bear), oh yes we do.

Funny how life's only too short for you when you have lost the argument!



England cap 1928 . Signed (aged 2icon_cool.gif for Oldham 1926-29 scored 33 tries in 83 games as full back.





Look he was International quality as his record proves. To try and say otherwise is futile. The point was the quality of converts.




I have already named 5 England RU Internationals that converted from 1974-1992 that is 18 years not 40. (Fielding, Bentley, Mathers, Lampkowski & Heslop) Which was the challenge. If you add 10 years of the 60's you can add Mike Coulman, Bev Risman & Ray French

You are still trying to hedge off your original statement which I contest.

The sole way you are judging talent is the number of International caps they have (now restricted to full caps although not originally stated) This is a simplistic and wrong as it rules out the likes of Shaun Edwards, Mather, Atkinson, Offiah etc and the many lesser players who have learned their rugby in the union code and enriched League at professional level.

I bet he'd still whup her on the gym tests on Superstars though.

Yes good point.

It's also funny as you still got your reply.



Right now we are getting somewhere. Is that just the one England RL Cap and would that be against (and I'm guessing here) Wales perhaps?

So earlier when you said



That included Holliday who never appeared in a GB RL jersey (according to Rothmans) and Mather who never appeared in a full England RU jersey before coming to League.



And the test wasn't to name players of International quality (a matter of opinion) it was to name Ex England Internationals (a matter of fact) to suggest otherwise is even more futile.



A challenge on that evidence you have failed. A test that was passable given I've suggested an elusive 5th member to try and help you out earlier but one you appear reticent to use, prefering to include a clearly ineligable player in order to 'win'.



And if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle. The question was probably originally posed in all innocense and you've had the devil's own job answering it with any credibility, manipulating the time-frame and adding your own bizarre qualification criteria.

Proves the point that ex-English RU Internationals have never been more than a hiccup in the superior code.



That was never once contested by me that I recall, indeed on the previous page you must of conveniently missed when I said 'Yup I don't disagree with that.' They say some people can find an argument in an empty room. I think I've found one.

Yes we are getting somewhere and I'm guessing you have finally cross checked your sources and belatedly realise Holliday was a full dual code International, which you had doubted. He also played 7 times for England RU and also the British and Irish Lions.

I note you have not the grace to accept that I was right on this point and you, your Rothmans handbook and its editor had as "a matter of fact" overlooked this players League International record !

Instead you sadly seek to decry Holliday for not having made more League International appearances as if this somehow excuses for your lack of knowledge of this player.

I have already stated that he converted to League late in his rugby life which limited his appearances but not his ability. He was 30 when he played for England RL. Perhaps you can pass these facts on to your editor chum at Rothmans in time for the next edition.

So your original comments were as follows.



So forget about ...Shaun Edwards, John Atkinson, Martin Offiah, Derek Hallas etc plus many good youngsters over the years



This is not correct. As I have previously pointed out the motivation to convert was not the money for most England International players




I think most of the players I have named are top proven International quality as most became dual code internationals.

You can wriggle off on as many tangents as you like but your original statement is based on a narrow prejudiced view.

Having read a fair bit of this I think you made a mistake when you tried to use dual code internationals (Capped England RU then moving to become capped in League) to make a point about the contribution of English RU in general to RL. It's a bad example, as there are virtually none of real note. It becomes even worse if you compare it to the contribution from Wales to our code which has been immense and is now drastically missed.
It's true, that many league players have come from English RU clubs, mostly during the amateur era though. I can think of some just at Leeds, Andy Mason, Andy Smith, Jim Fallon, I think there were several others (backs) who came that way. There has been a huge contribution - none bigger than Mr Offiah - one of the all time greats. So here I would agree.
Citing schoolboys though is not a great example, I think TVOC makes a good point about the lack of league promotion in schools compared to Union makes it almost inevitable that any good RL youngster might have found himself in representative RU via his school.

I think there are two different arguments going on here, and so it could be a long night.

I preferred it when tvoc & juan cornetto were arguing about planes.

I was actually taking the p*ss when suggesting you could count schoolboys as 'internationals'. Citing an 18-year old BJ Mather as an 'international' is a joke - surely???

You said GB International. I checked GB International and he didn't appear. I asked for verification, a link to such record or resource you didn't provide one.



How were you right when you said GB International. They overlooked every England cap awarded before 1975, perhaps because they were secondary in value to that awarded for GB, perhaps not.

It doesn't alter the fact you have had to go back to around the 1920's to get beyond the fingers of one Castleford hand in regards England RU Internationals to cross the divide. You're still proving (not disproving) the case that there have been pitifully few by that measure.



This is a player long before my time and never played for Great Britain despite your claim to the contrary. I know nothing about him and if that makes me a bad person then so be it, I suspect I may not be alone.



You stated he had played for Great Britain. Rothman's stated otherwise. Am I now to assume they were right and you were wrong? As there hasn't been a new edition of the yearbook printed since the game switched to summer that may prove difficult.



You're just rambling now.

These don't appear to be any of my comments.

None of this latest batch became dual code Internationals that I'm aware of although they were are all very fine League players.

Did Shaun Edwards even ever play a game of 1st class rugby union (park rugby doesn't count although it comes close - apart from the cross code challenge match V Bath in '96) after he signed on for Wigan on his 17th birthday?

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Leave us alone. We're just getting started.

We haven't even got to the bit where I get accused of being abusive yet.