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JC and BB the "When Harry met Sally" of SS.com icon_heartkiss.gif

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "By using an argument based on your "Ifs" and "guesses" you can read into it what you will in order to make a case. But that doesn't make you right.'"


Or neccessarily wrong? Unlike some I don't presume to know what others think.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "The fact is in the Tomkins case he was sent off because in the ref's opinion the arm was deliberately raised into the face after contact to cause injury and who will doubt it knowing Tomkins involvement in the preceding brawl and this players violent history. '"


The refs opinion was that an elbow was used - the disciplinary panel dismissed there had been any use of an elbow.

Tomkins violent history? He's a rugby league forward, not Ghandi.

The disciplinary panel on the Tomkins send off opened the case by stating In the Panel’s opinion you struck a Hull FC player (Yeaman) in the face with your forearm whilst in possession of the ball. The Panel believed that you had raised your forearm at the defender as he made the tackle, contact was made with the face of your opponent, this contact was reckless, and that it had the potential to cause your opponent injury. The Panel believed that in raising your forearm as you did; you ought to have been aware of an obvious risk of the forearm making contact with the head, but nonetheless raised the forearm where a reasonable person would not do so. In accordance with the RFL’s On Field Sentencing Guidelines, the Panel consider that such offence is a Grade B offence (Strikes with hand, arm or shoulder – forearm in possession of the ball - reckless). [/i

I am wondering which part of that description could not equally have been applied to the Ben Cross incident at Castleford?

Quote: Juan Cornetto "While in Cross's case he was not sent off (was he even put on report by the ref?) as the ref did not think anything was deliberate and neither did the Castleford players. A penalty yes but further action no.'"


Why would a referee need to place an incident on report that they had seen clearly for themselves and dealt with. The 'on report' system is surely only there for incidents they are unsighted or unsure about. In any case the referee doesn't need to put any incident on report these days as all games are scrutinised in full by the video review panel who in this case referred it on to the full disciplinary panel. How do you know the Castleford player's didn't think it was deliberate? They were receiving an unexpected penalty while not in possession and quite rightly allowing the referee to deal with the occurrence of foul play.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "But you seem not to want to recognise that one was deemed to be deliberate while the other was accidental. A big difference.'"


Deemed by who? The referee who saw the use of an elbow (not seen by the disciplinary panel) or the referee who saw a bump that ended in an opposition player's face. I saw both incidents the same .... perhaps because they basically were the same. A raised horizontal forearm used as a fend, that contacted a defender in the chest and raised up into the neck/head area.

As a ball carrier you either raise a horizontal forearm or you don't. If you do it's almost always (if not always) a deliberately action to try and bump defenders away. If it's raised and used horizontally it's also liable to continue to raise up after the initial bump/contact as it did in both these comparable instances.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "I think that the panel, quite correctly, took into consideration the preceding events and Tomkins part in the brawl and judged that he was deliberately violent. '"


The panel dealt with the two incidents seperately. Tomkins was not the aggressor in the first incident and was acting in self-defence after being pushed twice and punched before (understandably?) retaliating. Unfortunately I haven't seen any footage of this and so I am relying on the Disciplinary Panel's report into the incident.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "Many players are penalised and suspended for contact with the forearm including Ablett this season and Lauitiiti a couple of years ago on Westwood. Morley was regularly in trouble for it and Bailey was up before the beak on the same charge.'"


When has Ablett been suspended this season for use of a forearm?

Quote: Juan Cornetto "In many cases where it is the ball carrying arm that makes contact it is not deliberate as is often the tackler that makes contact with the ball carrying arm before it can be withdrawn.'"


What has this got to do with the Cross incident?

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "A contact sport like RL will occassionally have a bit of biff and I am sure should the occassion arise Cross will not take a step backwards and certainly will not hide behind his scrumhalf like Bailey shamefully did.
'"


Ok Tonto we'll leave that in the 'Wait and See' file, good one.

This point seems to counter-argue this following sentence,

"You appear to like foul and violent play. I don't."

If Mr Bailey gets involved lets take the moral high-ground, but if Cross in theory gets involved it's all casual 'wont take a backward step' and thats alright.

Talk about non-subtle agendas. That one was painful.

0/10 on that one Old Boy, must try harder.

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "
All the coaches play the squad that they have. Bailey has been a low cost fringe player that has been lucky to have been around to enjoy the trophy success that creative players like Sinfield, Maguire and Burrow have achieved. '"


How do you know the earnings of Mr Bailey?

I like peoples assuming of salaries. It really under-pins and highlights the utter tosh they come out with. Because if they state the un-known as fact, how can we take other 'opinions' seriously.

I questioned Tonto's rugby acumen and it looks as if I was correct to do so. And please do not be as condesending to write-off Baileys medals as 'lucky' to be around, like he is a passenger. He makes his contribution, like the rest of the team in recent years in the line of silverwear. Yes the above mentioned players are very creative, and they are allowed to be especially when the pack (including TMFMISL) get on top.

You have sinken deeper and have now left edgy points to one side and are just spraying verbal horse. This does you no favours.

Your rugby acumen allegation has been answered. Thanks.

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Quote: tvoc "
Tomkins violent history? He's a rugby league forward, not Ghandi.'"


We agree Tomkins is not Ghandi - but but he has earned a reputation for violence.


Quote: tvoc "The disciplinary panel on the Tomkins send off opened the case by stating In the Panel’s opinion you struck a Hull FC player (Yeaman) in the face with your forearm whilst in possession of the ball. The Panel believed that you had raised your forearm at the defender as he made the tackle, contact was made with the face of your opponent, this contact was reckless, and that it had the potential to cause your opponent injury. The Panel believed that in raising your forearm as you did; you ought to have been aware of an obvious risk of the forearm making contact with the head, but nonetheless raised the forearm where a reasonable person would not do so. In accordance with the RFL’s On Field Sentencing Guidelines, the Panel consider that such offence is a Grade B offence (Strikes with hand, arm or shoulder – forearm in possession of the ball - reckless). [/i

I am wondering which part of that description could not equally have been applied to the Ben Cross incident at Castleford?'"


The part highlighted above in red was the judgement of the panel having reviewed the evidence - Note

Because they did not react against Cross which normall6y happens when players think they have been deliberatly fouled eg the Tomkins case.


Quote: tvoc "When has Ablett been suspended this season for use of a forearm?'"

Sorry I meant last season funnily enough against a Tomkins!

Quote: tvoc "What has this got to do with the Cross incident?'"


Just pointing out example that most forwards fall foul of use of the forearm at some stage. But there is a difference between reckless with intent and just clumsy.

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Quote: thebloodbath "Ok Tonto we'll leave that in the 'Wait and See' file, good one.'"


My point was he didn't back down against Josh Perry and he didn't throw the first punch but he didn't take a backward step either.

Quote: thebloodbath "This point seems to counter-argue this following sentence,

"You appear to like foul and violent play. I don't."

If Mr Bailey gets involved lets take the moral high-ground, but if Cross in theory gets involved it's all casual 'wont take a backward step' and thats alright.

Talk about non-subtle agendas. That one was painful.

0/10 on that one Old Boy, must try harder.'"


I do not like deliberate foul or ly play. Its negative and shows a lack of skill. Neither am I justifying it if it had been Cross. However if the opposition start something I will not be critical of our players defending one another or themselves. EG if a prop forward hits a half back then its fair do's to go to the assistance of the half back.

Bailey is often the perpetrator of trouble as the whole of Superleague knows which is why he is so disliked and also why Tomkins is so disliked.

So do keep up at the back BB and 0/10 to you young man.

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Good thread this.

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Quote: thebloodbath "How do you know the earnings of Mr Bailey?

I like peoples assuming of salaries. It really under-pins and highlights the utter tosh they come out with. Because if they state the un-known as fact, how can we take other 'opinions' seriously.'"


Quite. But if you think Bailey is one of the higher paid established players then your opinion is as flaky as a Donald Trump haircut!

Quote: thebloodbath "I questioned Tonto's rugby acumen and it looks as if I was correct to do so. And please do not be as condesending to write-off Baileys medals as 'lucky' to be around, like he is a passenger. He makes his contribution, like the rest of the team in recent years in the line of silverwear. Yes the above mentioned players are very creative, and they are allowed to be especially when the pack (including TMFMISL) get on top.'"


I have consistently acknowleged Baileys usefullness as a benchman over the years and I also have posted when Bailey has been outstanding. Because these occassions are not that frequent is testament to his position as no more than a useful squad member of the years. In fact I will go as far as to say a very useful squad member over the years.

However lets not get carried away. To put his skills in perspective just look at any of the GF winning teams that Bailey has been part of and rank each player in order of importance.

Quote: thebloodbath "You have sinken deeper and have now left edgy points to one side and are just spraying verbal horse. This does you no favours.

Your rugby acumen allegation has been answered. Thanks.'"


Hit a raw nerve eh.

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "My point was he didn't back down against Josh Perry and he didn't throw the first punch but he didn't take a backward step either.
'"


Translates in reality to Perry owned Cross.

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "Quite. But if you think Bailey is one of the higher paid established players then your opinion is as flaky as a Donald Trump haircut!
'"


I don't deal with assumptions or finger in the air stuff. I'll leave that to you.

I prefer analytical acumen.

No need to bring Top Trumps scalp into matters. icon_wink.gif

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "I have consistently acknowleged Baileys usefullness as a benchman over the years and I also have posted when Bailey has been outstanding. Because these occassions are not that frequent is testament to his position as no more than a useful squad member of the years. In fact I will go as far as to say a very useful squad member over the years.'"


Thanks for the apology.

I accept.

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "We agree Tomkins is not Ghandi - but but he has earned a reputation for violence.'"


Earned with who? The referees, the disciplinary panel. You should have little difficulty pointing to the other instances he's been sent off and banned then to justify this apparent reputation?

Quote: Juan Cornetto "The part highlighted above in red was the judgement of the panel having reviewed the evidence - Note

So you're saying (in the disciplinary panel's view) that if the initial contact is made with the chest it doesn't matter where it ends up?

Odd then that the disciplinary panel on the Tomkins incident go on to conclude as their reason for the decision to impose a ban'The committee feel that while the initial contact was with the chest, the forearm was always going up and ended up in the face of your opponent. This had the potential for injury. This view was backed by the referee who felt that the incident warranted a dismissal. Therefore the committee feel that a 2 match suspension is to be imposed but no fine in this case.'[/i

I'm still finding it difficult to spot the dis-similarities between the Tomkins and Cross incidents. The panel are even using the referee's report as justification despite dismissing his view that the contact was made with a raised elbow. Without seeing a raised elbow does Ganson/touch judge dismiss?

Quote: Juan Cornetto "In both cases the ref was not unsighted. With Tomkins he was sure that the contact with the face was intentional. In the Cross case the ref was sure that there was no intent and only worth a penalty.'"


How do you know this? The fact Ganson chose to consult with his touch judge (who it appeared had a much clearer view of the incident when reviewing the TV footage) would suggest otherwise. This is classic Ganson by the way. Not my decision - only acting on the touch judge's advise. You hear him using this line all the time to the players during games and indeed appeared to do so in the opening couple of minutes to Jamie Peacock on Saturday re a forward pass decision against Webb. However when he sees an indescretion he acts (without the need to consult, stop or even think - often harshly), as evidenced by his sending off of Cahill.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "Because they did not react against Cross which normall6y happens when players think they have been deliberatly fouled eg the Tomkins case.'"


The Castleford players did react. The fact they didn't react violently proves nothing. The fact Wigan and Hull players reacted violently proves nothing also. It has already been established tempers were running high in that game immediately prior to the Tomkins/Yeaman incident and indeed centred on the same two players.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "Sorry I meant last season funnily enough against a Tomkins!'"


Fair enough on both counts. Apology accepted.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "Just pointing out example that most forwards fall foul of use of the forearm at some stage. But there is a difference between reckless with intent and just clumsy.'"


The only difference here that I see is a system where one hand washes the other. Referee sends a player off - the Disciplinary panel finds just cause to back that decision up. Referee doesn't send a player off - the Disciplinary panel find excuses to back that decision up also.

The more I review the Ben Cross one on Daryl Clark the worse it gets.

Fortunately coach McDermott saved the disciplinay a job this week.

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "
ly play.'"
...and so the agenda against Bailey becomes clear.

Shocking.

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Quote: tvoc "Earned with who? The referees, the disciplinary panel. You should have little difficulty pointing to the other instances he's been sent off and banned then to justify this apparent reputation? .'"


You must have spent too long watching your beloved Salford to have missed out on J Tomkins's bad reputation

No. I am saying the ref and panel decided that Tomkins forearm was clearly going to finish up in the opponents face intentionally While the ref and the panel felt Cross's error was not intentional.


Tomkins Case'The committee feel that while the initial contact was with the chest, the forearm was always going up and ended up in the face of your opponent. This had the potential for injury. This view was backed by the referee who felt that the incident warranted a dismissal. Therefore the committee feel that a 2 match suspension is to be imposed but no fine in this case.'[/i.

Quote: tvoc "Fortunately coach McDermott saved the disciplinay a job this week.'"


Yes you are right with only 5 games played he "rested" Bailey again

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Quote: G1 "...and so the agenda against Bailey becomes clear.

Shocking.'"


Typo and you know it . Grow up

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