Nantwichexile - I don't agree that rugby league is a simple game. Football, I would say, is a simple game - there is relative transparency in each pass of the ball and each play, but in rugby league, analysis of the performance allows us to understand better where we went wrong and/or where we played well. I frequently go to the game and watch it back on my Sky+ later, and often see things that during game time you can't see due to distance from the field or focus being elsewhere.

No-one enjoys a thrashing, but I wouldn't be getting too despondent about the two we've had this year; they were nowhere near what we've shown we are capable of, both at the end of this season and with a few good performances earlier this season, it was almost like we just didn't turn up. What you need to remember is that EVERYONE, every single team wants to turn us over so of course they raise their game against us, so when WE win, I don't expect a thrashing, I just expect a good performance. Where we have thrashed teams in the last 18 months it was the smaller clubs and I don't think anyone took confidence from the score alone, but the performance itself.

In terms of McDermott "showing strength", who would you suggest he drops and why? How many players do you think he should drop all in one go? If he did this, would you be happy, or would you be upset if the young replacements got thrashed? The squad of approximately 30 first teamers, as I hope you are aware, really only contains 21/22 at most who are of week-in, week-out standard, plus a couple of academy players who you might hope to give a game or two to. I've said this in earlier posts but I can't see how dropping any of the senior players is going to help anything; what they need now is a decent performance and the confidence they can take from that.

Players don't need to be dropped completely....you could for example drop the over-used knackered Sinfield and Peacock to the bench whilst starting Ward and Singleton. Webb needs dropping because of his petulance, allowing high bombs to bounce.... and to see what we might start with next year. Hardaker is not succeeding at LC: it seems prudent to allow him time at FB with perhaps Keinhorst given a run at LC (or Chisholm on the left wing with Hall moved inside). We know Ablett can cover if all else fails. Kirke needs dropping in favour of Daniel Smith perhaps. We need to stop pretending Lee Smith can regain his pre-RU form......at least in the outside backs. At best use him at FB or in the middle and develop any remaining talent there.

I agree that Sinfield and Peacock could do with a rest, and while I would perhaps start Ward (on occassion), I would only bring Singleton off the bench - we have other props who would deserve to start (Richard Moore for me). I don't agree that Webb needs dropping, he might not have played well in his brief stint last week but as I say earlier in this thread, he's made a number of tries this year with some brilliant passes and creation of opportunity so at the very least, the good weighs the same as the bad. Hardaker is not playing to his best at the moment but I thought he was outstanding filling in at fullback last week, I certainly wouldn't put Lee Smith there over him. Keinhorst will hopefully get a couple of games before the end of the season but again, I wouldn't just drop him in the deep end and play him every week (I outline why in previous posts). The same would go for Dan Smith, but again, we've got some really good competition at prop (JP, Leuluai, Bailey, Moore, Griffin and Singleton without including Kirke) so there's no need to be playing him every week.

This being said... you haven't said how Mac would be showing strength by doing any of this?

Richard Moore maybe...but I would always prioritise the kids with a longer future if feasible. I agree about Webb's try creating abilities, but the fact is he is leaving at the end of the season can actually do anything about it....UNLESS you are Brian of course

I can't agree with prioritising the younger kids - if a player has worked his backside off to play well, he should be rewarded for that whatever his age. The kids are the future of the Club but we also have a responsibility to give them time to get used to Superleague, and it's better if (certainly on debut) they can come off the bench on say 25-30 minutes at the earliest when *hopefully* the opposition is a little more tired. I agree it's worth seeing what our options are for next season, especially if the injury Webb picked up last week is going to keep him out. When I talked about playing young lads every week, I assumed when you suggested dropping players that you meant for a longer period of time than just one game.

I don't think it seems like the senior players are in charge at the moment - I think Mac's shown great strength in shaking things up a bit and playing Burrow at hooker, as one example. Obviously we've played the big 3 twice this year already (Saints, Wigan and Warrington) and those are the games that you just can't afford to drop any senior players for; one because it would be a big ask for any youngster making a debut, and two because at any time our senior players could click and change the game. We need to keep faith with these guys for the rest of the year for that very reason, though we've got a few fixtures coming up (Wakey on Monday, London in a couple of weeks, and Wakey again at the end of July) where we could rest a couple and play a few young lads. Giving a good performance against any team will lift the players and should give them the confidence they'll need in the run up to the end of the season and through the play-offs.

Totally respect what you say about this debate, but the debate is ultimately about Mac as a coach, and I've been happy to spend the time this week defending him; I can't tell you how frustrated I've been with some of the non-reasoned and highly personal abuse I've heard (though I've tried throughout this thread)! I can also tell you it would take some highly taxing physical and mental changes for me to be Brian McDermott!!

How long do you accept below standard -performances from "senior players" before they become droppable??
How long as an elite coach should it take to change clear weakness' within our defensive structure?
How long before it's deemed reasonable to question a coaches selections ,tactics or lack of and blind faith in things that clearly aren't working?
How far do you have to run ageing Props into the ground before rotating them?
Good performances against Wakey ,Cas and London will only be looking to cover the ever widening cracks within our set up this year and won't do anything to address the previous lack of even looking like a challenging team against the likes of ST's and the Pies!!
Whatever defence you and JC put up for the coach ,team ,tackle bags and hot dog vender the questions and criticisims are very VALID and carry weight with more evidence to back those!!
Now there are some tough calls needed and burying yer head in the sand ,throwing cliche's about and hoping we come good isn't gonna work.

This.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark and a handful of top draw performances at the business end of the season simply masks the facts that we have an ageing and tired looking pack, a full back that is either sublime or woeful and a management team who seem to insist on playing players out of their natural positions .

I could not (and indeed did not) put it any better myself.

Being the incontrovertible dedicated supporter you are I do hope the powers that be will listen to to the likes of these concerns rather than complacently placate themselves with the ever patient acolytes who would slavishly follow the team unquestioningly ...whatever the warning signs.

rhinowinorlose?

I suppose I am, and in probabability will belucky to live long enough to continue being a ticket holder as long as i already have been. And yes the value given has decreased but it's certainly less hassle having one and would agree with g1 that the match itself is only a part of being a regular attender. I'm probably less of a fan'atic' either being older or realising that you can be poor in parts and win the title.

The golden period though was 2004 up to the finals of 2005 as we had a period of consistency and exciting play.

After the final losses came a justification of pacing a season though i think there's a big differencebetween losing a game due to rotation and woefully underperforming

This I completely agree with, and it is a debate about his capability as a coach. He's a guy doing his job honestly and to the best of his ability, he's a decent guy and I believe has a lot to offer the club. He got a lot of stick last year for the rubber glove and the floodlight incidents and I thought that was all nonsense. Last year he defended Bailey brilliantly in the press after the Hudds incident and was a credit to the club in his after match interview at the CC final.
But is he the right person to be making certain crucial decisions at the club with regard to the team and the squad development? tvoc points out - quite correctly - that his previous head coaching record is one of decline. Now there may be mitigating factors, there are certainly things at Leeds that he has inherited that have not made the job easy. But given that there needs to be a particular job done at Leeds with regards to a squad that is slowly losing established leaders to the inevitable passing of years then the question "is McDermott the right man for the task" is what we are talking about. In the opinion of many he isn't, and as he has no actual track record for doing the job needed successfuly. We appear to be losing ground this year and looking more and more disorganised, so it might be fair to say we need someone else to make these decisions.

I believe much the same as G1, that we have a solid club - the best foundation in the game, manageed superbly well, we have a good squad with some of the best players ever to wear a Leeds shirt -although some are now in the twighlight of their careers, and some highly promising young players. How we go from here is down to the skills of the leader. You obviously believe Brian is the right guy, others don't. The personal abuse for McD is not required to debate this point and I don't think he deserves it.

we need a 2002 cull at some point.

people say need the golden days of danny 6 , rob 7 , kev 13

there has to be a time of thanks but no thabks they are all 30, and extending contracts of 35 year old props ? remember jeffosaurus

Did he or gary choose his no2?

Is his no2 there for his usefulness or because he's his best mate?

There's a difference between questioning the selections & tactics of the coach (which I'm all for), and proclaiming him unfit for the job (for which he deserves some latitude in light of the GF & WCC).

As for 'burying yer head in the sand, throwing cliches about and hoping we come good' not working, what pray tell do you propose we do as fans of the club? Kidnap Kath H and not return her until McDermott is sacked and Craig Bellamy appointed with Wayne Bennett as his assistant?! Last time I checked none of the regular posters on here are board members. For all the collective apoplexy on this forum it isn't going to change anything. Yes, the team is under-performing, big deal, that's the nature of sport. Recent comments from GH suggest he's hardly happy with the situation, but wisely he's giving the team until the end of the season before wielding the axe prematurely.