I think if Wigan beat us on Saturday then they need to back it up afterwards. The next 4 weeks after that feature away games vs Saints, Hudds and Wire. Going by current away form it's hard to see them picking up much (if any) points from those. At least 4pts from a possible 6 is needed to make any Magic weekend win count. If they do well in those games then it still works out ok for us in one way as other top 4 teams will have dropped points.

Some quality back tracking and goal post shifting on this thread just recently!

I think Mr McDermott deserves some criticism for losing to such a mediocre Wigan outfit.

Possibly the worst Pie side for around a decade....and they still easily beat the 'Rhinos'.

One game in isolation you should never use as a measurement. So if it was last night alone you wouldn't go so far, although those tactics last night were poor indeed.

What is more important is how many games. It's a year since the last Magic weekend against Wigan. Our form over that 12 months, is probably on a par with an Hull FC, Widnes. That is what is unacceptable.

Some posters get their knickers in a twist when critisism is levelled at MCDermott, and the line always trotted out is that the poor performances are in the minority. But they are not, the poor performances are the norm, and that seems to get lost in arguments.

What should be argued more is the reason for those poor performances, is it purely MCDermott or is it the options he has available due to poor planning?

I have said on another thread that I don't think Leeds can play much better than they have whilst some other teams have another gear once they get all their troops firing. Leeds are more fun to watch this year the constant off loading is great but the fundamental problems i.e. lack of attacking structure that have dogged McDermott his whole Leeds career still exist. You may well be correct in that he can only coach the players he is given - he plight isn't helped by having half a side that is well passed its best.

Leeds have not played with structure under the last 3 coaches. When it works is brilliant. When it doesn't is very frustrating. It was working for the first 20 yesterday, but something changed and we looked lost.

Whilst having some sympathy with your view, I think that you have exaggerated the magnitude of the issues to make your point. I agree that improvement from squads around us with a lower average age is more likely. But Leeds are capable of improvement, we have missed Briscoe and have also got a few others that don't look fully fit. Also our tactics can get sharper, as you pointed out our attacking structure has been less than effective on too many occasions. But the clubs around us contending for the top 4 spots have all, without exception, had issues. The outcome will in large part come down to who has the best pool of experienced players at the business end of the season. I have never felt that we have had top spot nailed on but I still think we are strong contenders, especially seeing as those in the twilight of their careers will want to go out on a high. Final thought, Half the squad well passed it! Really?

Wigan slowed us down at the ptb and we ended up playing the game on their terms. The big worry for me is that that was all they needed to do.

JESUS CHRIST! It's the thread that just keeps on giving.

I bet Hull and Widnes fans wish they'd won the CC in the 12 months since the last Magic and were currently sitting top of SL with, on paper, the easiest run in of anyone in the top 8.

It's not as though the coach could have been taken by surprise at Wigan's tactics....the coach and team certainly seem to have the measure over us....even when Gelling publicly openly states how to win; the Leeds team still seem to have no answer.

Would you say Peacock, Sinfield, McGuire, JJB, Kylie, Burrow, Ablett, Delanney are improving or getting slowly worse?

The older players may well want to go out on high but are they physically able - the last nine weeks will be week after week of high intensity rugby with no let up.

Would you say 8 was half of 25? Even in if they are all in decline and you fail to mention the possibility that they may be maintaining their overall level of performance. Being over the hump in perfomance terms is also different to being well past it!

Would you say that there is room for experienced heads as well as young bodies in our squad?

As to whether the older members can go out on a high, that depends on how they are managed over the next 9 weeks.

Although some of the older players were average yesterday (JJB was very poor) I would be more worried that some youngsters were average or dominated. Watkins did very little and Ward was completely overshadowed by Bateman. However McGuire, whose attitude constantly irritates, actually played quite well. Aiton also looked good. Hardaker seems to be the one consistent high performer, however I thought he would go the length and score but was easily run down by three Wigan players including Bateman.

There can be only one rational answer to that question. However, there are plenty of squads containing players who are also in decline - and in some cases, some who were never that good in the first place or who never will be that good. Overall, I'd say we won't be too far away from at least one trophy this year.

That said, my concern is that the magic weekend could easily be our side's biggest game this year, as indeed it could have in each of the last 3 seasons, in terms of occasion and attendance. It's a big concern to me that each time we've failed to perform at the required level. That suggests to me that should we even get to a final we may be more likely to lose it than we are to win it. I think that edge has now gone.

Unfortunately you are correct, added to that Wigan were quickly up and in our faces made for an uncomfortable night for our forwards.