It should be said that i'd be happier walking away from the p!$$ poor performances happier if we'd turned up and had a go rather bending over and taking it up the @rris and showing the resolve of a soggy kit-kat.
Dont mind losing and even the odd (ST's away) blip it has happened to TS ,Bluey etc etc when they were in charge aswell.
Not only that looking at the "big games" this year and last its clear they capable of much much better both in terms of effort ,composure and quality.
I dont expect them to win every game or even play at their maximum best every match just have a dig dont get humiliated on a regular basis which has happened far too often in the last 2 yrs imo.

Havent seen anbody celebrating coming second as yet ??? but for the time being its ok to celebrate reaching the final

Then I can still only draw the obvious conclusion that you would rather have Wigans playing record this year than the Rhinos.

You are naturally looking at it from a ST supporters standpoint whilst the coach has to consider perhaps who else is also watching and drawing conclusions from his selections and game plans to win what to him are meaningless games at the very best worth only 2 league points.

It was indeed, and yet you will remember that McClennan was heavily criticised by some of our fans towards the end of that season for taking the team backwards. Not a view I necessarily agreed with then either. I'm merely making the comparison between the players attitudes towards them. I'm not party to the coaching abilities of either of them. None of us are.

The reasons for the last 2 seasons 5th placed finishes are still up for debate, but it hasn't hindered our ability to contest for trophies.

I'm not sure what it adds to the debate either way but I recall some players saying they were particularly determined to win the hubcap in 2009 because there had been comments made somewhere that the success in winning the 07 and 08 finals was undermined by having come from second.

I remember Wigan players in the 1990s saying that it was fear of becoming the team which lost that drove them on in their Challenge Cup run. This team instead seem to have taken additional motivation from a constant desire to prove people wrong.

Paradoxically, and somewhat distressingly, this means of course that Headingley's booing s have played a vital role in our Super League success, alongside the naysaying journos and unsophisticated opposition head coaches. The team comes alive when they are told they aren't good enough to win or not worthy enough having won or, heaven forbid, that they are chosen out of a line up as the weakest link. I suspect, just like Wane, Brian McDermott stores away every slight and perceived injustice and catcall. Unlike the pie muncher, though, he has the wit to use it for creative rather than self-destructive ends.

You give my memory way too much credit I'm afraid.

Dosnt McD have a military background ???? and therefore a mindset that states winning the battle isnt important but winning the war is.

Given the various issues surrounding the WCC, it really doesn't provide any true indication of the respective merits of the two teams. The English teams Iincluding leeds) have struggled to compete over the last few years and yet, they have been holding significant advantages. You also have to question the motivation shown by the Australian teams.

I wasn't guessing, I think I've learn to discern what is good and what is exceptional.

TheEagle beat you to writing that.

I don't think that was the point of my post but I agree indeed they are not. One came after actually winning something.

I'm hearing plenty of excuses being lined up which is unfortunate if true. Squad size may well be down to the CEO but squad utilisation and rotation is down to the coach.

Points of Order.

"Sinfield's wish to only play in a certain position". Is this factual or are you simply re-hashing some of Bywater's ramblings? I can't recall anything of this nature being attributed to either Sinfield or his coach. Do you have anything in your archives or have you made that up?

Similarly, you've given Noble's reasoning for bizarrely leaving Sinfield out of the squad in 2004. Again, do you have any direct quotes in your archives or have you made this one up because this is quite bizarre given Sinfield has occupied many different roles for GB/England before, during and after Noble's reign as coach. If Noble really did say that, and I don't believe he did, then he's come up with some nonsense to justify an appalling selection at the time that had more to do with his personal prejudices than benefitting GB.

I'm surprised by Sinfield's comments re: McDermott. I was under the impression that he was a Tony Smith man through and through. Whilst I thought McClennan was popular with the players (at least in his first season or two), I don't recall Sinfield ever saying McClennan (or Powell for that matter) was the best coach he had worked with, unlike Smith and now McDermott.

It would be interesting to know how the other experienced players (especially Peacock, Buderus, Lauitiiti, Webb, McGuire, Burrow etc) rated the different coaches in their respective careers.

And that is basically why we will not be renewing ours after many yrs.

We miss 2/3 games through holidays, Monday night rugby is crap when you start work at 6.00am on a tuesday, and the team only turn up when they feel like it.

We are done with freezing our butts off in february and march watching crap games in february and march.

For £200 (£15.50 per game assuming we make them all) we get to stand for13 games in a rickety old stand with an obstructed view where it impossible to see the whole pitch.

In our house we have been referring to "rip off Rhinos "for many yrs and we have finally had enough.

We felt this way last yr but relented after the amazing play off run. NWin or lose on Saturday that wont happen again.

From now on we pick and choose our games.

I've found this rlhttps://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/oct/19/rugbyleague.trinations2004rl where Noble talks about Sinfield (and Deacon) being really close and still being part of the set up but nothing to support TVOCs claims.

Then I found this rlhttps://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_league/3751450.stmrl where it's much of the same. Interestingly also in this Noble talks about form being important. Obviously not recent form because the Leeds number 6, Sinfield, in the Grand Final the day earlier played the Bulls number 6 off the park. Guess who the Bulls, sorry, now GB, coach picked in the squad? Even if TVOCs claims of what Noble intimated are true (they're not) I wouldn't believe them if I heard Noble say them to me himself.

But I haven't been able to find anything to support what you're claiming TVOC.

PS, I also found this rlhttps://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/mar/25/rugbyleague.leedsrhinosrl which has nothing to do with the point but I like the journalist stating Sinfield proves a point to Noble as the Rhinos stuff the Bulls in 2005, with Sinfield at 6 again.