2004 - first in 32 years and 2015 first time getting the better of Wigan in any 1st grade final in their shared history, first Leeds double (Champions and Challenge Cup), first Leeds treble adding LLS. 2017 was unexpected in some quarters - Castleford had a bad week and capped it off with saving their worst performance for last. I think I said after the semis the old saying 'you have to lose one before you can win one' could come into play. Leeds know all about Grand Final night and it showed, Castleford know a bit more about it now.

That last two minutes though - McDermott OUT.

TBF in those first two GF's (Wigan vs Leeds '98 @ Bradford vs Saints '99) it was guaranteed one of them would lose on their first GF appearance. Since then you've only had Hull, Warrington and Cas appear and no wins.

Problem is running into teams who have been there countless times. If Cas get there next year against Hull that'll be interesting. Cas have a GF appearance under their belts now against a Hull team who don't (yes the club were there in 2006 but that's so long ago no players are left) but have some CC's under their belts.

If Cas get back its highly unlikely they'll have to deal with anything as difficult as the Hardaker debacle again though. I don't think they'd have won with him, but what a thing to have to deal with.

The saying pre-dates the SL Era and was commonly heard after RL's then showpiece event - the Challenge Cup Final. Can't recall how accurately it tracked but losing finalists would be offered the phrase as consolation.

The lose one to win one didn't apply to us in 2004, then we only had McDermott from the 98 gf, the same as cas had Shenton who played for saints in 2011. We had been in the cc final in 2003, but so had cas in 2014.

I suppose we had bai and furner with nrl grand finals. I just don't think it holds any weight, the experience of losing a grand final doesn't improve your chances of winning another one IMO.

As you point out the majority of Leeds' 2004 Grand Final winners, were losers in Cardiff at the 2003 Challenge Cup Final. Not the same showpiece event but both showpiece events nonetheless, at huge neutral venues with week long media focused build ups.

Invaluable experience gained to carry forward into the next big showpiece occasion, collectively and individually. I'd be surprised if the Cardiff loss didn't particularly help Leeds' band of home grown products that played in both - namely Calderwood, Walker, Sinfield, Bailey, Diskin, Burrow and Ward (McGuire, Jones-Buchanan and Mathers (Warrington?) in and around the squad also)

And the reverse, Leeds losing Grand Finalists in '98 to Wembley winners in '99

Cas' team had Webster, Shenton, Holmes and Massey survivors from Wembley 2014 - with only Lynch as a possibility on Saturday - the other 12 all moved on.