A first choice Leeds 17 would probably have:

Watkins
Hall
Sinfield
McGuire
JJB
Ablett
Ward
Burrow
Singleton

So 9 compared to Wigan's 11 and with Sutcliffe, Golding, Handley, Mulhern, Ward being next in line we don't seem far behind them. Plus if you're including Gelling I reckon we can make a case for Hardaker.

For years people moaned about our lack of overseas signing - at once we had less than anyone else. We now have 5 and people moan about the academy.

It's all about balance-I still think as a club we get it about right. Admittedly, we need to replace some people over the next 5 years and we shouldn't expect miracles

Gelling is a Kiwi whom came through at the Roosters

Wigan have *had* to promote youth more than Leeds have, because they keep losing their players. Wigan have had to promote these players, but there's no point doing it for the sake of it. And in that list of yours (Gelling??) there are three players (McIlorum, O'Loughlin and either Tomkins or Farrell) who would get into the Leeds 17.

If you're going to make a statement get the facts straight and give it some valuable context.

Come on now, you only listed Ward and Simgleton for us because they've only come through recently (so not included JJB and Ablett) but then include O'Loughlin and McIlorum for Wigan who came through a long time ago as well.

Like has been mentioned, Wigan's team has a lot to do with how many they've lost also in recent seasons. Had Mossop stayed would Sutton be where he is? If Burgess was staying would any new wingers get a look in for the foreseeable future?

You have just completely changed you argument - first it was kids can't get through at Wigan because of overseas signings now Wigan have to give youth the chance because they have lost so many - which is it?

On Gelling he hasn't played first grade for anyone other than Wigan - but I take the point

Wigan are less bothered about losing key players e.g. Tomkins, Richards - I doubt you would see them fielding 2 37 year old props. They do appear to have a better/more consistent pipeline younger players and more confidence in using them

I can't believe that (the first bit, that is; I can't imagine many sides wishing to play 2 37 year old props apart from ourselves). I think they're probably phlegmatic about losing Richards - sort of similar to our losing Buderus, i.e. not one we've brought through, but I can't imagine they'd not be bothered about losing the likes of Tomkins (presume you're talking Sam here and not Joel although I shouldn't imagine they were ecstatic about losing either).

While I may give you Leuluai (although whether he represents better than value than the likes of Pettybourne, Lauaki or Tautai is arguable), I suspect there are very few Wigan fans who wouldn't happily trade Dom Crosby for Jamie Peacock, irrespective of their ages.

Absolutely.JP is a one off who who would still command a place at any SL club,just like Menzies in his last few years over here.These guys are exceptions not the norm.Kylie is debatable.

Agreed on Micky Mac and Sean O'Loughlin, Farrell, maybe yet Tomkins?