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Possibly the best thread that I've ever read on this board. Even better than the old Hels Bells discussions about Franny's thighs.....Remember them?

And I came here looking for news of the Rhinos.......

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Quote: Juan Cornetto "The reason this roundabout never ends is because you can never concede a point that is lost. It was you that incorrectly challenged my comment that the Typhoon was making its much delayed debut in a combat situation which it is. '"


Why was it a much delayed debut? As an air superiority fighter where are the enemy airforces it has avoided?

Typhoon didn't need a conflict to prove itself. It was in service performing the roles it had been tasked to do. And doing so despite your concerns which are many and varied. Doesn't appear to have prevented their relocating to Southern Italy and flying CAP missions within hours of arriving.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "You then tried to expand the definition of “combat” and confused it with the non combat ops. '"


I'd rather the Typhoon was tasked to patrol and defend UK airspace both here and over the Falklands than be called upon to take sides in a civil war in North Africa.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "How many combat missions did the Typhoon fly in Afghanistan & Iraq?'"


None. How many did you expect it to fly?


Quote: Juan Cornetto "The Tornado will have to be retained not just in a recce role but until we can replace it with an aircraft that is as effective for ground attack.'"


Yes, I expect so. There again I expected Harrier (and a carrier) could come in useful and a replacement for our only submarine hunter/killer, maritime patrol, long distance search and rescue aircraft would be entering service around the time the aircraft it replaces was going out of service.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "You are being slippery again. You stated that the Typhoon was “establishing air superioriy” This is not correct. The maritime and coalition aircraft including the Tornado fully established the air superiority by ground attack and degraded the Gadaffi regimes abilty to get its planes in the air. Once this had been achieved the Typhoon was introduced with a role with patrols to maintain the air superiority. Quite different roles.'"


Where's the argument. I've agreed suppression of ground forces is part of establishing the no fly zone.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "Well we certainly have paid our money - but we have had no choice. At 4.1Bn pounds the Nimrod MRA4 has the distiction of being the most expensive aircraft ever built and there was only one that was airworthy. By comparison the Space shuttle would cost 1.3 Bn if built today!. Even the staggeringly expensive B-2 Stealth bomber only cost 1.3Bn apiece. You could buy a fleet of Space Shuttles or steath bombers for the price we paid to have a converted 1950's vintage airliner.'"


Links to those costs would be a useful addition.

Even if technically correct (based on one complete aircraft) I think the present government canning the project at the 11th hour of production and bringing in the scrapman to destroy the airframes nearing completion has played a major role in the unwanted statistic. The MR4A expected price per unit (at cancellation announcement) of £400m, while ridiculously expensive, is still nowhere near the unit cost of a B2.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "Remember all the MRA2s are refurbished and re equipped Nimrod MR2s which had already been purchased by the RAF long ago before at infalted prices. Had the project continued we would have received just 9 refurbished Nimrods which would have mean each costing half a billion pounds plus what was paid for it in the first place. One should note that this would have represented a more than quadrupling of the original fixed price agreed per plane in the 1990s. These planes were also no longer state of the art and were the last 9 De Havilland Comet airframes designed in the 1940’s.'"


So if the whole Nimrod MRA4 was folly from the outset is now the time to remind our viewers who were the Government in charge who took the original decision and who was the defence secretary responsible. I'll let you make the announcement.

And which government has just given a repreive to the two Nimrod R1's they scheduled for the dustbin next Thursday.

As for delays, price overruns etc. that's what happens to just about if not every major defence procurement contract and usually caused by the politicians/MOD while the defence company take the flak and British workers in this case lose their jobs. I doubt anything much will change anytime soon either. It's easy to carp from the sidelines but they'll find it a whole lot tougher to change anything now they think they're running the show. Events dear boy, events.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "The report, by the Defence Equipment and Support Inspectors, was not just in the Sunday Times but also was reported in the House of Commons. Your sole rebuttal is to quote an annonomous internet posting and accept this as “factual responses” over a report by the Inspectors.

So now you believe an annonomous posters to justify your political prejudices. No wonder we disagree on so many things.'"


Good. If it was reported in the House Of Commons I imagine there will be a link to said report. I'll look forward to reading it if and when you produce it. In the meantime the rebuttal I copied appeared to be informed and heartfelt. I've no idea of it's providence but offer it for consideration. As I said you pay your money .....

Quote: Juan Cornetto "And what exactly is a measured way? '"


Measured as in not an unprecedented gamble. When Labour left office the recovery was fragile but at least it was happening. Unemployment had been held down below expectations and economic growth was becoming established.

Since the election and the emergency budget the rate of growth has declined in each quarter (indeed back into negative growth on the last quarter), unemployment is rising (when it should be falling at this point in the recovery and the real cuts haven't even started yet) and the OBR is having to adjust it's growth forecasts and each time they do it goes down.

While the country, a large number of it's citizens and the public services many of those same citizens rely on will be poorer as a result of the decisions being taken, the fundamental question remains, will the pain be worth it in the end, will growth return or is the cure worse than the condition.

One thing's for sure, without some serious growth returns to the economy nothing will add up. With inflation stubbornly above target the pressure will increase on the BOE to start raising interest rates a little and that will do nothing for the recovery, which leaves you wondering what's in store for plan B.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "The leader of the opposition Mr “DeadEd” Milliband and Mr “Record Debt” Balls have so far been unable to say exactly what cuts they would make yet they oppose every cut that has been proposed. But this seems to satisfy the Labour supporters who seem blissfully unaware of the huge mess the country was left in.'"


Well done, not childish at all. Who is blissfully unaware? Labour have broadly stated both before the election (as much as the other parties did) and since what they would be doing if they were in office now (it's hardly their fault if some people aren't listening) but here's the thing, they're not in government, they're in opposition which probably explains why people are taking no notice.

Despite now being in opposition if the coalition ever come up with a good idea I'm fairly sure Labour would back it.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "I also expect a very difficult next two years for everyone but at least we now have a Government that is taking responsible action. '"


Everyone? Hardly everyone. Oh I forgot we're all in this together ....... yeah right.

If their actions ultimately end up responsible for a lot of pain and little gain I trust you'll hold them just as responsible as you do the last government despite their spending programmes being backed penny for penny by Osbourne until 2008 and the banker's crashing the world economy. And here again while the British government (or any other government for that matter) failed to properly regulate the city who was it calling for less regulation.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "You seem to have been quite happy for the last Labour government to have spent record levels - far more than the country could afford, to have wasted billions of public money with a lack of management like the Nimrod debacle yet squeal when the time comes to pay off the debt.'"


Have you ever borrowed to invest?


Quote: Juan Cornetto "I note you have avoided answering the two questions I posed.
(above)

You should check out your sources. The RAF have been out every day and night. The Tornados continue the difficult task of taking out specific targets. Yesterday with Brimstone missiles.'"


My source was a Kirsty Wark interview with Sir Mike Jackson during Thursday's newsnight on the BBC.

Sorry but I weren't that informed on the situation in Libya to make the call. I heard a lot of what sounded like propoganda on both sides but not much in the way of evidence to back it up. There would be talk of an airstrike and then pan up to show a transport aircraft overflying at 10,000 feet, so it's impossible for me to say. At one point the only thing that was missing from news reports was the mention of a 45 minute capability.

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Quote: tvoc "Why was it a much delayed debut? As an air superiority fighter where are the enemy airforces it has avoided?

Typhoon didn't need a conflict to prove itself. It was in service performing the roles it had been tasked to do. And doing so despite your concerns which are many and varied. Doesn't appear to have prevented their relocating to Southern Italy and flying CAP missions within hours of arriving. .'"


Look this aircraft has taken since the 1980’s to produce and first flew in 1994 and here we are with its combat debut in 2011. I would call this a delayed debut but to avoid conceding a point it appears you would not.

The Typhoon/Eurofighter was designed for cold war combat now no longer needed. The misgivings that I have previously highlighted regarding this aircraft arose because of the long production delays and the many and on-going technical problems. This meant that by the time it was operational with the RAF its original planned role had been diminished and its readiness for combat had been much delayed.

Although you have been impressive with it at airshows and on Youtube it still has some problems. The much hyped 9G spec can cause cracks in the airframe which does not match the strength of the wings. There have been many electrical and software problems that have limited the numbers of operational aircraft available.

The Typhoon is being adapted so that it will be able to have a ground attack role which we hope will prove satisfactory

Quote: tvoc "I'd rather the Typhoon was tasked to patrol and defend UK airspace both here and over the Falklands than be called upon to take sides in a civil war in North Africa. ..'"


Irrelevant comment not addressing the point.


Quote: tvoc "None. How many did you expect it to fly? ..'"


You asked me how many wars has it missed. The answer is two!




Quote: tvoc " Where's the argument. I've agreed suppression of ground forces is part of establishing the no fly zone...'"


You are still wriggling. Lets be precise .. ..suppression of ground forces is not just “part of establishing the no fly zone” it is a 100% of it. Until you take out the surface to air missiles, radar, command and control, aircraft on the ground, runways etc etc you do not have a no fly zone. The Typhoon did not take part in this phase at all but you tried to imply that it did. The Typhoons role is to maintain the no fly zone in the most unlikely event of a Gadaffi plane getting off the ground.


Quote: tvoc "Even if technically correct (based on one complete aircraft) I think the present government canning the project at the 11th hour of production and bringing in the scrapman to destroy the airframes nearing completion has played a major role in the unwanted statistic. The MR4A expected price per unit (at cancellation announcement) of £400m, while ridiculously expensive, is still nowhere near the unit cost of a B2...'"


When they were scapped the real cost was over 400 BILLION! Plus the orginal cost for each plane. With only one plane airworthy this did make the cost much more than a B2. Had the full 9 planes been completed the cost would have been Half a BILLION each as I said.


Quote: tvoc "So if the whole Nimrod MRA4 was folly from the outset is now the time to remind our viewers who were the Government in charge who took the original decision and who was the defence secretary responsible. I'll let you make the announcement...'"


What we should also “remind our viewers” is that when the original contract was placed by the Conservatives there was a fixed price per plane. The New Labour free spending “no boom and bust” government managed [or mismanaged] to allow a more than quadrupling of this price with plenty of evidence that the costs could further esculate.


Quote: tvoc "As for delays, price overruns etc. that's what happens to just about if not every major defence procurement contract and usually caused by the politicians/MOD while the defence company take the flak and British workers in this case lose their jobs. I doubt anything much will change anytime soon either. It's easy to carp from the sidelines but they'll find it a whole lot tougher to change anything now they think they're running the show. Events dear boy, events..'"



I hope to see future procurement taken away from Civil Servants who have been clearly out of their depth.

Quote: tvoc "In the meantime the rebuttal I copied appeared to be informed and heartfelt. I've no idea of it's providence but offer it for consideration. As I said you pay your money ..... ..'"


So appearing to be “heartfelt” makes it 100% accurate in your eyes does it. It could equally have been written by someone who was bitter at perhaps losing their job and posting their revenge with a political agenda!

I assume you mean “Provenance” unless you are claiming divine "providence"? I know you are a disciple of Broughton who you often say walks on water!
But you are not....Oh my G..?

But you stated these quotes were from someone “involved intimately with the project” and that these were “factual responses”

You said that “Personally I side with the view expressed by someone heavily involved on the project rather than some half-baked, politically motivated propoganda, leaked to the Murdoch press but then I would say that wouldn't I.”

Yes you certainly would say that wouldn’t you. Much better to believe and quote an annonomous posting on the InterWeb than an Inspectors report, reported in the demon Murdoch press [ie.

Nice to see an authentic, open minded non politically motivated response.

By the way does your politics allow you to watch Superleague on that evil Murdoch Sky channel


Quote: tvoc " Labour have broadly stated both before the election (as much as the other parties did) and since what they would be doing if they were in office now (it's hardly their fault if some people aren't listening) but here's the thing, they're not in government, they're in opposition which probably explains why people are taking no notice. .'"


"Broadly stated" thats one way of describing it!. Labour before the election and at no time since has been drawn on exactly where and by how much they would have made cuts and increased taxes. Which is why DeadEd has no credibility.

Nobody said it would be easy to try and rectify the inherited financial mess left behind by your big spending heros. The recent events in Japan, Libya and the Middle East may well blow the whole world economy off course as the effects on oil and commodity prices continue to rocket but if it does I am sure you will blame it on the Coalition with glee.



Quote: tvoc "Despite now being in opposition if the coalition ever come up with a good idea I'm fairly sure Labour would back it..'"



I don’t think DeadEd Milliband has decided on his polices yet (almost a year) however he and his opposition chums have backed our role in Libya if thats what you mean by a good idea!


Quote: tvoc "Everyone? Hardly everyone. Oh I forgot we're all in this together ....... yeah right..'"


Well we´re certainly in the soup together thanks to Mr “No More Boom and Bust” Brown and Mr Ed”All” Balls leaving us with no money and a maxed up creditcard.

Quote: tvoc "If their actions ultimately end up responsible for a lot of pain and little gain I trust you'll hold them just as responsible as you do the last government '"


Yes I certainly will.



Quote: tvoc "Have you ever borrowed to invest?.. '"


Yes but always with personal guarantees and in the knowlege and that it would be paid back in a given timescale by myself and not the British public. If not I might have lost both my house and my shirt.

Whereas these politicians can spend our money willy nilly and when the time comes for pay the piper they dissappear to make a fortune making speeches and writing books. 'a la Mr Blair and Mr Brown who has not been seen in the House for almost a year yet still draws his MPs salary and tops up his index linked pension .....what a socialist... what a hypocrite.



Quote: tvoc "Sorry but I weren't that informed on the situation in Libya to make the call. I heard a lot of what sounded like propoganda on both sides but not much in the way of evidence to back it up. There would be talk of an airstrike and then pan up to show a transport aircraft overflying at 10,000 feet, so it's impossible for me to say. At one point the only thing that was missing from news reports was the mention of a 45 minute capability.'"


Both the BBC and Sky News are showing too much propaganda IMO. They are quite correctly free to challange and criticise our side but unfairly give equal time to censored reports from Abu Haw Haw in Triploi.

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It was nice to put a face to a name when he was shown in TV this weekend!

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Quote: Damo-Leeds "It was nice to put a face to a name when he was shown in TV this weekend!'"

Yes was good putting a face to the name, and stevo alluded to the centre (forgot name already) gave him a good pasting on few occasions so already one of my favorite people!!

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1 Warrington 2 Hull 3 Wigan 4 Castleford 4 Castleford 5 St Helens 6 Leeds 7 Catalans 8 Hudedersfield 9 Widnes 10 Wakefield 11 Salford 12 Leigh Playoffs:Warrington Hull Wigan Castleford Four sides rejoining: Widnes Wakefield Salford Leigh GF Winners Warrington CC Winners Wigan:



Quote: Damo-Leeds "It was nice to put a face to a name when he was shown in TV this weekend!'"


You should have watched the clips of the 1961 semi vs Saints to see what he was capable of on the pitch.
I thoroughly enjopyed the reception that all the members of the 1961 team received on Friday night. The only highspot of a totally miserable evening.

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