Good post bonzo, echoes alot of my feeling about new labour. I was brought up as a red and would never ever vote tory but new labour has brought in so many policies i fundamentley disagree with i can no longer bring myself to vote for them (not that it matters, labour will always gain this seat) so i end up voting for a fringe party to show my disatisfaction with labour who are becoming very much a party that doesnt respect democracy. I wish smith could have survived to see power as i believe he would have made a far better job of running this country and had a great deal more integrity.

I would like to be associated with the comments of the last speaker....

Certainly not. am I a Liberal, I was a Labour supporter and have been brought up with labour values, but old labour not the new labour we have now with our unelected leader

the Conservatives were very well I may add backed into a political corner by Bliar and his media spin. if they had been apposed to the war they would due to the way the media was controlled and spoon fed information been looked upon as unpatriotic, and that would not do for a party who want the votes just as much as labour. The whole war was built on a lie sold on one and continues on one, differing thoughts on why Afghanistan was invaded first a gas link running through Afghanistan to feed a power station in India is a thought, this gas line being built by American business to supply American built power stations in India was stalled by the Taliban, the same Taliban who were courted by American Presidents to start the project, this gas line is now either well on its way to being finalised or been completed. the political will, will eventually waver no matter what the posturing. and ideology will win in the end just like it did against the Russians in the 80's with help from America, and just like it did in the early 20th century against the British and Russian empire's who occupied land there....

Ahmen to that brother....

Differant wars all together one was over a century ago and therefore largely an irrelevent comparison, and the other was fought with much inferior technology across the whole of afghanistan (as opposed to the current conflict which is by and large confined to the south and east of the country). To give a comparison, russian casualties (over a similar time period) were about ten times greater than allied casualties, while taliban casualty estimates are significantley greater, another major differance is the lack of support from the cia which the taliban needed to beat the russkis. The war in afghanistan will be won in the end, how long that takes and how many of our soldiers dont come home is another matter.

Wished i could share your optimism Pyeman i truely do. but we have to overturn centuries of lifestlye and also a religious will far more powerful than our political will.

I find that very hard to believe, if Blair and 'his media spin' could wield such power over the main opposition, how come he couldn't do that over people in his own party (including his own cabinet)?



I missed all the yells about this against Labour and the Lib Dems and all the others that voted against the war. In fact, I don't think that the main paper that would have such influence you suggest, The Sun, would fly in the face of rl63% of its readershiprl so much. In fact, the only front cover on the day of the invasion that showed a positive spin on the invasion was the conservative Daily Mail (rllinkrl)



So what put off the other parties - the ones who did vote against the invasion?



Now there is one thing we can agree on

I find that very hard to believe, if Blair and 'his media spin' could wield such power over the main opposition, how come he couldn't do that over people in his own party (including his own cabinet)?

because most Labour MP's id say are or were anti war even Mr Bliar was once when it suited,

i can understand how you look upon the Conservatives they are and still follow and jump on any ship for votes but as i saw it they were especially its leadership jostled into a no win situation by clever politics. and lets face it its not like they are strangers to sending the country to war, as for other parties id have thought they could like anyone with common sense see through the lies, as for the suns percentages i do find them very supprising for their readership

Do i know you ? Two things in common there mate

Yep.

Some of us still doing both, but must say am not a big fan of our MP! and also remember what the tory's did and want to do again

I myself don't mind Yvette Cooper, it's Wakefield Council leader Peter Box i'm not too keen on. I hope our Lee does well at Hull Uni and decides to try and take his job. I wouldn't be surprised if Ashley doesn't end up with Yvette's job in a few years time though.

Old Labour policies are fine, but unfortunately would not win an election and had it not been for Yvette and many of her contemporaries, then the Tories would be in power and we would have already seen the demise of the NHS and so much more than is already the case. The fact that has to be faced up to is that there are not enough traditional labour party voters in the country to vote Labour into power these days and the party has had to move a little to the right (OK some might say a lot), or otherwise be doomed to opposition for keeps.

Unfortunately, because the labour party has had to move with the times to capture the middle of the road voter, those on the left of the party have become more and more disillusioned and will vote for anyone but the official labour candidate, as we’ve seen recently with the people of Barnsley voting the BNP into power, they can’t see that voting against such as Yvette Cooper, is simply playing into the hands of the Tories and letting them in by the back door. OK Yvette is relatively safe in her seat, but others are not so fortunate and I have no doubt we'll see the poor get even poorer if (or when) David Cameron and his cronies are elected.

OK some of the things this labour government have done haven’t been very clever, and some of the stories coming out in the expenses claims scandal have tarnished the reputation of all MP’s. But where would the lower paid be if the tories were in power? well for a start there would be no minimum wage, that will no doubt go with pressure from the CBI, then watch for the NHS and more public services disappear by stealth. You may not agree with everything Yvette and the labour party are doing, but you can be sure that the alternative will be far less palatable.