I'm in the middle of watching a film right now, but I'll watch it on iPlayer later.

What should be done to prevent this? By whom?



No, I'm not citing that as saying that it makes it all ok. I'm saying that immigrant women are being questioned in the street about a practice that has been performed on them, their mothers and grandmothers. If they also happened to have a young daughter who they performed this traditional ritual on in the last decade they have probably unwittingly committed a crime that you are insisting is worthy of sending them to jail and having all their children taken from them.

If a mother knows all about the laws and says "screw you, she's my daughter and I'll do what I want to her" then you have a case that she's guilty of child abuse. But if she hasn't been reading the Guardian articles you have and doesn't know that she's even committed a crime then treating her as a child abuser is barbaric treatment for both her and her family.



A campaign that mainly involves investigating them, convicting them and taking their children away from them.



Unless a family is known to social services or reported by a teacher or doctor then most kids will go through life without being "protected" from sexual abuse. You are pretty much wanting every African immigrant to be automatically flagged as a potential child abuser simply because they have a daughter.



Time will tell whether the Rotherham report was an accurate representation of facts or an attention seeking report to shake the system up.

It also has to be said that while social services have a duty to protect children under their care, they don't have unlimited powers or resources. And just because a white English girl in care had an older Asian boyfriend, it doesn't mean he was pimping her out all the time.



Like I said, you're too extreme for the BNP. They admire you and will probably want to share fund raising ideas, but they can't risk being linked too closely with you.

Who are you wanting to put in charge of banning orders for African families who say they want to take their daughters to visit their grandparents?



You've made this suggestion many times in this thread.



You have argued clearly that FGM is child abuse and that the child abusers should be jailed and have their children taken from them.



Are you doing this by an ad campaign, or are you employing a team of enforcers to go and speak directly to nearly every African immigrant? Do you have the authority to spend all that money?



But it is a problem with mainly African immigrants, with the procedures performed in Africa. The Guardian readers will probably be 100% against this, and they'll have been roughly 99% against it before their campaign against it. But the campaigns against this, the plays that a British African woman performs in London, they're not much use if the immigrants aren't Guardian readers and aren't going to see her play.



The point is to not to engage with the 7 year old girl who is having the procedure on her and convince her why it's needed, because very few people here ever thought it was needed. The point is that we need to engage with African parents and the African villagers who are arranging these procedures and persuade them to stop.



Well you're assuming wrong.



If you read your links, there are plenty of girls who have had FGM performed on them and didn't actually know. There are British doctors and nurses who perform check ups on children and they don't know what to look for.



I wouldn't convict her if she stabbed you to death. If your car was blown up in an attempt on your life I wouldn't consider them terrorists, I'd consider them freedom fighters.



You consider it to be an evil act. Many African women don't. I personally believe that African women's viewpoint on African women's vagina's are actually worth more than yours.

I think that many Papua New Guinean tribes have screwed up traditions with their boys (and probably girls) which would definitely be considered child abuse in the west. I implore you to go and educate them about their abuse of their children and I will mourn your death when they kill you and eat you.



Virtually 100% of the UK are united in their disgust of child abusers. If public opinion was followed by the government then the punishment for child abuse would probably be slow death.

The same clearly cannot be said for FGM in Africa. There are millions of people who are for FGM, have had it performed on them and want it performed on their children.

They are clearly not the same issues, and I think you are in a very small minority of people who think they are.

Obviously, they should not be permitted to leave the country, and equally obviously, by the only people able to prevent them, the government. As they indicate they plan to do.


Please desist from making up opinions and attributing them to me. I will repeat once more that IF a crime has potentially been committed then it SHOULD be investigated and a decision taken on what if any action follows, in the time honoured way that our judicial process has worked for centuries. I am saying that IF a child is at risk (for example if one child in the past had FGM and there are young girls therefore at risk) Social Services SHOULD investigate and take whatever steps their investigations lead them to take.

The caveat is that neither the police, CPS or Social Services should hold back from doing their duty through either improper political pressure, or fear of upsetting vested interests, or being accused wrongly of racism or whatever. Like the statue, Justice should be blind, and applied equally to all. That includes their personal mitigation explanations and circumstances.

Now for fcsk sake stop parroting this ludicrous misrepresentation of my views, as it is getting boring.


I entirely disagree, and am quite shocked you would suggest this. You seem to have done a U-turn as weren’t you suggesting basically laissez faire before, or have I missed something?


Your most ridiculous straw man to date! How do you make this stuff up?


Because until you pointed this out, the world thought Social Services had unlimited money and manpower. What would we do without your insight?


How crass and how insulting to the girls so badly let down in the Rotherham and other cases. No person has made such an outrageous suggestion. If we are looking at Rotherham then we have very young teenage girls and even pre-teens being systematically groomed and then being led captive into a lengthy period of sexual abuse and degradation very often by older men, even being transported around different cities to be used for sex. And you have th disgusting nerve to talk of “a white English girl in care had an older Asian boyfriend” when that is not remotely the issue at all.


What an utter asshole comment, I will not dignify such bilge with a response.


Your straw men are becoming increasingly embarrassing for you.



Well spotted, It is. I remain in the dark as to whether you agree. Some of the time you seem to suggest that while you are not in favour of it, we should let it go as it’s only being done by ignorant immigrants who don’t get it’s wrong. Where we differ is that I would not allow or condone it in the UK under any circumstances. Not for any child. Not in any community.


You are really on form for your straw men today, aren’t you? Are you involved in some sort of competition, like the Oxenhope Straw Race? I mean, they just keep on coming. I have made my view crystal clear, and it is not hard to understand, but don’t let that stop you. I will repeat it for your convenience, but don’t let me stop you from continuingto claim you know what I think better than I doI do not advocate ignoring crime due to cultural or religious differences, which is what I understand you do.

If a parent is guilty of a crime then they should be dealt with by the criminal law. I am not “advocating” jailing them, I have faith in the criminal courts to, in the main, impose the correct sentences on convicted people, and if the COURT decides that jail is inevitable then so be it.

I am not “advocating” taking children from their families or putting them in care. I am saying that if a child is found to be at serious risk of FGM then social services need to do their job to protect the child, which may indeed involve removing them from the family. Or may not. I advocate the enquiries being diligently made, and if the evidence is there, then the required steps to be taken, not shirked from for fear of upsetting some section of a community or other or some religious or cultural sensibilities or whatever.'"

I'm not going to go through each point in your post again because it's clearly going nowhere.

IMO you are clearly in favour of prosecuting parents, jailing them labeling them as child abusers and having their children taken off them. I think this is blatantly clear in many of your posts, no matter how much you choose to deny it. This is what you think should happen and you are blaming the British authorities for not making it happen.

I do not believe that any other country prosecutes parents for this, all of the prosecutions that I've read about have been of people who either perform the procedures or arrange them. I do not believe anti-FGM campaigners would support the prosecution of parents. If you know of people who are, by all means post links to them.

Based on everything I've read about FGM I am against it. I do not believe I have ever made any arguments in favour of FGM. My arguments are against what I consider to be your crackpot solutions.

Don't need an opinion, I have put it in writing. You should read it instead of trying to invent stuff.


Hypothetical scenario for you:

1. Family X has a girl at suspected risk of FGM

2. Authorities engage with the family, and do what they can to explain both why we do not permit FGM, and that if they were to go ahead they would be committing child abuse which could have serious consequences.

3. Despite the above, the girl shortly afterwards is smuggled abroad, and subjected to FGM, and in exactly the manner described in the blood-curdling account I linked to earlier, causing serious physical and psychological harm to the girl. This comes to light when she is admitted to hospital seriously ill with complications and infection.

Do you think the parents should face any form of investigation and potential prosecution for this, or is it your argument that they should be exempt?

The mutilated girl has 2 younger sisters. Do you think despite what has happened, Social Services and all other authorities should just leave the family alone, and let the same fate befall these girls?

I've read it. You clearly classify FGM as child abuse and argue for prosecuting and jailing parents.

You're the one that said 60,000 females in the UK have suffered FGM. Unless they were all deserted by their families this means 60,000 families that practised FGM are still here. Why do you think that is? Maybe because the State has hitherto turned an almost totally blind eye?



I reject your question. I've no interest in investigating the hypothetical wishes of hypothetical people in other countries, nor do I "wish" for parents of females in this country to be prosecuted for it. As I've vainly explained several times but you're stuck on "transmit". IF THEY ARE FOUND TO HAVE COMMITTED OFFENCES then the law should apply to them like it applies to me. That is all.

You think even if they commit an offence they should be let off because they are parents. I think that decision is neither mine nor yours to make. The authorities need to make it, and whatever it was, fine, if due process has taken place. My problem is that we have been doing practically NOTHING, seemingly on the unacceptable grounds of how undoubtedly hard it is to do something, and the equally or more unacceptable grounds that we should act, but are scared to, as we don't want to cause upset.

What I "wish" for is the prevention of FGM to female residents of the UK and if FGM crime / abuse [idoes[/i take place then the UK to deal with it under due process, and not turn a blind eye.

The fact that FGM apparently takes place here is a disgrace. It is yet another demonstration on the negative impact of allowing mass immigration from the third world. Our country has been dragged backwards by politicians allowing mass immigration and pursuing a policy of turning a blind eye to avoid racial tensions, etc. The law must be upheld for all - including the Arab boy racers in Knightsbridge - who appear to be immune from prosecution presumably because the government doesn't want to upset the high spending oil rich states?

It's getting to the stage where the law only applies to white British people who are non-violent! The law has been undermined by political incompetence and as a result our country is becoming corrupt.

I think the number is actually an estimated 66,000 females in the UK have had FGM performed on them. This is the estimate of all women who have had FGM and are now in the UK. This will include a lot of women who had FGM performed on them as children and later emigrated to the UK.

It's a estimate. Some estimates are roughly accurate and some are miles off. The truth is we really don't know how many women in the UK have FGM and we're never likely to know. And it will be difficult to determine how many UK residents are taken to Africa or the Middle East to have the procedure performed.



Because you know the answer. No one else is prosecuting parents for it, it hasn't been used as a way to combat FGM anywhere.



You want the UK to combat FGM in ways that no other countries do. France has prosecuted people for FGM before, but they have all been practitioners, not parents.

The only way parents are going to be found to have committed offences is if social services and the police actively target this issue as a child abuse issue. But IMO for social services and the police to do that they will insist on the Home Office signing off that that is their instruction to go down this route. IMO the Home Office will never do this and nobody but one or two backbenchers would even dare suggest it.



Rather than pleading to the "authorities", I'd like you to nominate which authority should be placed in charge of eradicating FGM. Then write to them making your case and see what response you get.



IMO victims of FGM would chose for a blind eye to be turned rather than treating this as a child abuse issue.

I frankly forgot that you know the stats for FGM related prosecutions in every country on the globe. Ooops - 0.00007 seconds on Google and already I have found rlthisrl. Oh well, maybe Tanzania doesn't count. Wait - what's this - rlprosecutions in Ethiopiarl? Maybe that doesn't really matter either, I suppose.


In July a certain David Cameron - not, currently, a backbencher - said parents will be prosecuted if they fail to prevent their daughter being cut.

On the contrary. The fact that immigration has taken place between Africa and Europe means that the first world has been informed about appalling treatment of women in the third world.

The fact that the first world countries are taking an interest in this issue means that the world will hopefully be made better for the women of Africa because these practices will be eradicated.

Neither of those stories actually make any mention of parents being prosecuted.



He announced the introduction of new legislation that would prosecute parents for failing to stop FGM being performed on their daughters. I have reservations about the basic premise of that legislation. For example you've written many times that everyone should be the same under the law. So what would you think to a law which said that British parents should be prosecuted if their children suffer from sexual abuse? It suggests that they struggle to gain acceptable evidence over who is responsible for FGM so they are trying to get round that by forcing parents to remain responsible.

That's all well and good if the families are perfect and all live together in harmony, but what happens when families are fractured and children spend time living with grandparents, aunts, friends etc?



To be honest most of the recommendations and policies seem very good. The Govt have definitely stepped up in response to the campaigning and produced a pilot project which seems very positive.

But the fact that they are now setting up pilot projects and offering new instructions to doctors and police shows that the system wasn't equipped to deal with the problem in the past.



The government would never come up with a fantastic report and pilot project which was then ignored, would it?



I support the victims of FGM.

I do not believe in the vilification of the perpetrators if they are not evil but are merely acting upon how they are brought up.

I am also unsure whether the governments response to the issue is a response to the problem or a response to the publicity. Just looking at the numbers of girls born in England and Wales to mothers who have undergone FGM and that number is 60,000. Given that these girls are British African and will mostly be raised as British I'd question how many of them are actually going to be sent over to Africa to have this performed anyway. FGM is not something that is valued in GB at all and one would suggest that if they were going to be brought up under traditional African values then they wouldn't be here in the first place. Given that no actual estimates were made to how many UK girls are at risk of FGM I suspect that the number is left out because it's so small it would kill the attention it's getting. I suspect that the UK government is being pushed to solve a problem it really doesn't have because by doing that it will help eradicate it from Africa. I applaud this if it is true because it's pretty much genius and I hope it works.

It would be absurd. It is not a crime if your children suffer from anything. It is a crime if you abuse them, or are complicit in them being abused.

Also, it makes no difference whether they are British or anything else. Just that they live here, under our law.


A ludicrous interpretation, to most people it will suggest no such thing. And would be futile as it is the CPS who will decide in any given case whether or not there is sufficient prospect of conviction, and whether it is in the public interest that there be a prosecution. You know, like they do for any other alleged offence.


I am glad you at least accept that.


It actually doesn't. There could have been - indeed always could be - improvements in ANY systems, but the lack of action in the past is down to a lack of willingness to bite the bullet, and a dismal failure for unacceptable reasons of various agencies to do their job. Many young girls have paid the price.


Sadly, governments do so all to often. It will be the task of FGM campaigners to keep the pressure on and amke sure they walk the walk.


In what way?


Another straw man. I advocate and suggest a number of things. "Vilification" isn't one oif them, vile though FGM abuse indisputably is.


I'm damn sure it is a response to the publicity. Sadly that is how things often have to get pushed to the top of agendas nowadays. Frequently politicians need to be shamed or bullied into action.


Well, the plan is: none.

And this is the problem, in that this is the sort of fairy story, idealistic multiculturism that those left leaning folk seem to believe in....If it was really like this then I don't believe anybody wold have any problem with immigration.

Yet, in reality, its nothing like this - Multiculturism has seen large towns and cities divided into 'areas' for those of certain race or religion.... You can visit many Northern towns and not see a white face in certain areas. The idea of people living happily side by side, sharing in the advantages of each other's cultures, is a completely false one.

As I say , the thought of living in cod'ead's type of multiculturism is an idyllic and splendid idea, but, unfortunately, human doubt and human suspicion means it will never happen.

The street where I live has hardly any white faces in it, though there are still some. We do indeed live very happily side by side, keep an eye when some household or other is on holiday, that sort of thing.

We don't share in the advantages of each others' cultures much, I don't think. Although the lady next door does regularly give me some of her samosas or pakoras. But I don't share in the "white faces" culture any more. People mostly do what they do, come and go, and just generally muddle on.

But you have me worried now, if the idea is completely false, what is happening here? Am I in mortal danger? Or maybe some warp in the spacetime continuum? Please say I don't have to move.