<fx: snooze>

I was wondering what was going on in there, I was next door at the Biomarker Congress for the same two (very long) days.

But I wasn't in Dallas on the 22nd November 1963.

The French and Germans, or more precisely BMW, are now chipping in with the scaremongering. They've obviously got more to lose than us if it comes down to OUT.

Let's face it, Brexit is for gamblers and those with least to lose if everything goes titsup.

Even Obama is sticking his oar in now. It's all getting desperate.

Have the Out campaign come out with a viable argument as to why we should leave the EU yet? All I've read is the opinion of experts & economists that say we'd be better of remaining in the EU.

The Out campaign at the moment seems to be built on an ideology and a massive risk, rather than what's actually best for the country & the people in it.

I'm willing to listen to either argument, I've just not seen anything compelling from the Out campaign yet

That's because they haven't got anything compelling, unless it's this "Ohhh barbarians at the gate" thing.

Reading in the i this morning that Farage is saying Labour are only being anti-semetic to attract the Asian vote, as if they are cheating and it's something he wished he'd have thought of first.

Have to say I am struggling with this issue.

Being on the left I would normally go for the internationalist, co operative pre Europe view


BUT


It is clear thatEurope is just another capitalist club that we are part of.

The way they dealt with Greece and the negotiations of the tip agreement are good examples.

Socially there is an element that is positive re eu legislation working hours and green polices as well as the European court but the rise of the far right in many countries makes me wonder whether it will be as progressive in the future.

My other concern is that the benefits system in Europe is quite unique in that it relies only on being in need which is what I like about the welfare state. In Europe no other country has that which means that with free movement of labour the strains on the welfare state here are going to be huge.

There is a big part of me which thinks that by going it alone ( I don't buy all the scaremongering as capitalists don't like to affect trade) that being out of Europe means that the country will forge it's own identity which will shake the labour movement in the uk wake up.

Then the British will have to decide what sort of society they want Daves Britain or a progressive country based on equality and fairness.


This pretty much fits in with the views of tiny benn so I am in good company.

I’m beginning to think Dave is a double agent, coming out with “If we leave then a European war is on the cards” – really!

The scariest thing for me though is I.D.S. reckoning to be a champion of the poor .

Can’t the Tories sort out their bloodletting in some other way other way rather than jeopardising the financial stability of the country?

It was quite hilarious watching a replay of the Treasury select committee meeting from the6th March were Lord Rose the ex M&S boss who is the leader of the 'together is stronger' campaign get his kicked by a Tory MP hahaha The £3k nonsense exposed as bollicks www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35712184 The ridiculousness that people cannot see/understand how and why we would be better off out is far scarier than anything else. I'm a vote for out btw...lol

It was quite hilarious watching a replay of the Treasury select committee meeting from the6th March were Lord Rose the ex M&S boss who is the leader of the 'together is stronger' campaign get his kicked by a Tory MP hahaha The £3k nonsense exposed as bollicks www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35712184 The ridiculousness that people cannot see/understand how and why we would be better off out is far scarier than anything else. I'm a vote for out btw...lol

Conversely, IDS went on 5Live yesterday and quoted some research about immigration, suggesting that for every EU migrant who comes to work here, 23 British workers are displaced; the hardly incisive Tony Livesy pointed out that the research was actually about non EU migrants, but IDS ploughed in with his blatant lies, with little regard for the facts. He also skated over the fact that calling for border control, which we already have for non EU migrants, has done absolutely nothing to reduce those numbers.

The whole campaign is based on spin, fanciful notions, lies and scaremongering - the UK will vote with little knowledge of the facts, because they aren't being provided to us by either side of the argument.

All this "the facts" nonsense is infantile. Such a decision is based on judgement and "facts" do not come into it.

For what it is worth, my view is that the UK would suffer a short-term economic hit but would become better off out than in within a few years. Security - no real difference. International representation - stronger as would have our voice as a major economy and military power, rather than been subsumed within a single EU vote.

But the bigger picture is one of freedom, democracy and law. Our system, which has served this country and its citizens very well for centuries is at odds with that of the rest of the EU and is being and will be totally undermined by continued membership as standardisation occurs. So, the country that is willing to break the rules where the rules are stupid will have to "obey orders" from central command (effectively Germany) and we all know where that got the world in the 20th century.

Labour's support for the EU on the grounds of the "social model" is simply risible. What when the model becomes Far Right thinking - which is where things are slowly but surely heading? Will it all be left to the Russians next time to sort it out?

Whereas drawing any relationship between a decision to remain in the EU to the rise of the Third Reich, is a mature and sensible platform upon which to base your argument?

As I said - spin, fanciful notions, lies and scaremongering; you've proved my point rather elegantly.