In your straw man, the mother would clearly under UK law not be convicted, but don’t let that stop your ranting.


If done for purely religious reasons then, as a statement of fact not law, I would say yes, though for obvious (to most) reasons, it is a much less significant procedure medically and isn’t aimed at sexually crippling the child. You can’t sensibly compare it to the evils of FGM. It does create the risk of totally unnecessary infections and other problems but equally is a medical procedure that can be done on legitimate health grounds too, and basically the child can often get on with his life pretty much unaffected. It’s not a parallel, and the medical opinions on the outcome arerlequivocalrl. There are many cases where children suffer unnecessarily or even die as a result, for example the case Goodluck Caubergs which led to the conviction for manslaughter by gross negligence of nurse Grace Adeleye who carried out the circumcision. The court heard that up to three children a month are admitted to the Royal Manchester Children's Hospital because of bleeding after home-based circumcisions. However, the POINT is, as the Law Commission found maybe 20 years ago, male circumcision for non-medical reasons is not unlawful in the UK even though it felt a law should be passed to make the position crystal clear, and as the practice is therefore not against the law, unlike FGM which is so plainly against the law, there is no sensible comparison to be drawn. As a statement of law, male circumcision is NOT child abuse as UK law presently stands and so I accept that position.


No, it shows that they know what is involved and that you clearly don’t.


It is child abuse but my concern is not with labels, just with preventing the abuse, and if too late for that, bringing those responsible to justice.


Of course we can, and are. Hopefully many lessons have been learned from the failures and inactions of the past, and increasing number of cases where the law has dealt with offenders, and there are dozens of initiatives which a second on Google would educate you about. However the fact that other types of child abuse go on seems to be a very weird argument against action to stop FGM.


Look, if a girl is at genuine risk of FGM then it follows as a civilized country and if there is no alternative, then we should and must remove her from harm’s way. If the risk goes away she can go back. I entirely reject any shortage of foster carers or care home places, if there were one, as any sort of justification for allowing girls to be mutilated.


There are many and sensible proposals and initiatives some of which I already linked to. Those who know about the subject seem to have very good ideas how to tackle it. All that is needed is the government to back and actively support them for a decent start to be made. If you can’t be bothered to read the links then a fair summary would be identifying children and communities at risk, educating them, and at the same time ensuring they also realize the criminality of these practices.


Leaving aside that very many of these are adult females of a range of ages, I don’t get your argument. Is it really that because there are lots of victims, we should just leave them to it?


Great. About time a start was made, and identifying and prosecuting the (alleged) butchers is an excellent place to begin.


I have heard this from several places. Here’s onehttps://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/yvonne-ossei/female-genital-mutilation_1_b_1822156.htmlrl


As if I claimed I “have the solution”! Your conclusion that the numbers are too high so we should just leave them to it is the laissez faire equivalent of wanting it to continue, though. Your “solution” (“Well, I’m against it of course but lots do it so what can we do”) I find just totally unacceptable and alarmingly defeatist.


They, like everyone else, should obey the law of the land.


No, that is just an utterly banal stating of the obvious. As for the rest - I challenge you to answer one single question, thenA seven-year-old girl is screaming hysterically in a secluded room. She has just had her clitoris cut off, her vagina sewn together and the surrounding areas of her genitalia burnt with corrosives. Her legs have been tied together and for months she will not be able to walk. Furthermore she will have no choice but to urinate through her fleshy wounds. The physical pain and psychological trauma will haunt her until the day she dies, unless she bleeds to death first.'"

Here's what you wrote earlierIf a girl is found on medical examination to have suffered FGM, a prosecution shuld be brought. You do not get sexually mutilated by accident and no jury would believe that it happened without the knowledge of the parents. [/i

[iOne frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up.[/i

You have faith that the juries, and before them the police and CPS, have the ability and knowledge of these countries to be able to determine who performed this operations, when they did it and who organised them. I don't have faith that they can do that. And that's mainly why the CPS will always struggle with putting forward a prosecution, even if they were willing to prosecute the parents. Which I'm not sure they are and suspect they aren't.



And they have made the case very well in English to an English speaking audience. But is this case being made to African immigrants with limited, if any, knowledge of English?

One of the links you posted had a woman who talked with other women. They had had the procedure performed on them and suffered no ill effects and didn't understand the problem, they said that their mothers and grandmothers had also had it done. They didn't understand what the issue was.

You want to castigate them as evil child abusers because they have performed FGM on their children. But it is an English label and an English crime outlawing a practice that mainly occurs in Africa. I know that in Britain ignorance of the law is no defence, but anyone with any sense must accept that there are difficulties with educating immigrants to our country that their customs are illegal and outlawed here.



How do you determine that a girl is at risk of FGM? Unless you are proposing a ban of children returning back to their home country from England then you clearly can't.



That I don't have a problem with.

What I have a problem with is your suggesting of criminalising parents for this and taking children away from their families over this. Have you got a link of anyone else suggesting this?



No, my argument is that this is a massive difference between the cultures of the western world and the cultures of poor African and Middle East countries. IMO you're arguing that we need to go to war with these people, by throwing these child abusers in jail and taking their kids away. I'm arguing for diplomacy, for educating them and convincing them that they should abandon their practices.



See, I think this is really good education for huffpost readers, I'm sure it will play really well with readers of the Guardian as well.

But it is very much written from a British perspective for a British audience. I'm not sure there's any attempt whatsoever to even begin to address the situation from an African perspective.



I think your "solution" would be rejected by even members of the BNP as too extreme. They'd probably like your solution, but they wouldn't be brave enough to endorse it.



Which is fine if you know about the law and understand it. A little more difficult if you know three words of English and have no comprehension of what FGM is.

FGM is not performed on babies. It is performed on young girls.

While no ill effects may result initially once a woman starts to have sex or gets pregnant is when problems occur, particularly during child birth.

Quote: dr_feelgood "FGM is not performed on babies. It is performed on young girls.'" Type IV: Type IV includes the introduction of corrosive substances into the vagina. This form is practiced to a much lesser extent than the other forms in Nigeria. These procedures can take place anytime from a few days after birth to a few days after death. In Edo State, for example, the procedure is performed within a few days after birth. www.asylumlaw.org/docs/nigeria/u ... igeria.pdf Page 2

Quote: dr_feelgood "FGM is not performed on babies. It is performed on young girls.'" Type IV: Type IV includes the introduction of corrosive substances into the vagina. This form is practiced to a much lesser extent than the other forms in Nigeria. These procedures can take place anytime from a few days after birth to a few days after death. In Edo State, for example, the procedure is performed within a few days after birth. www.asylumlaw.org/docs/nigeria/u ... igeria.pdf Page 2

Of course. I'm not arguing in favour of FGM. From everything I've read I am against it and strongly doubt that there is any reason that the practitioners will come up with which will suit us in the west. And as Africa is a mainly poor continent with poor medical services any unnecessary medical procedure would be better off not done.

It's just his FGM = child abuse = prosecute parents and take away kids solution that I completely object to.

I hope you watched the Panorama programme on Monday night. Then you may have at least a clue as to just how abjectly wrong you are.

You are confusing different things. If a child was mutilated in the past before coming to this country then no crime has been committed in this country and no prosecution can be brought.

A whole different kettle of fish is the practice of taking young girls abroad for the purpose of FGM. Everything possible must be done to prevent this.

We have a decent enough judicial system, warts and all. If only its wheels could be set in motion on FGM crimes, I’m sure it would produce in the main just outcomes.


And so you cite that as making it all OK, or at least tolerable?


I’m the one supporting a serious and effective effort to educate, and to inform that in the country in which they now live, FGM is a serious crime.


There is a whole literature on just this subject. In many ways it is no more and no less difficult than identifying children at risk of any other form of sexual abuse, in any section of the community. It is a shiit and demanding job, but that should never prevent us from doing it. In another of your naïve posts you cited the Rotherham case – that is what you get when the authorities neglect their duties.


That is exactly such a thing as I propose, in a case where there are grounds to suspect that the purpose of an intended trip is for FGM.


I have never made this suggestion, though. I have suggested that people in the UK who commit serious crimes under UK law should be prosecuted under UK law. Parents of children are no exception. I do not advocate ignoring crime due to cultural or religious differences, which is what I understand you do.

If a parent is guilty of a crime then they should be dealt with by the criminal law. I am not “advocating” jailing them, I have faith in the criminal courts to, in the main, impose the correct sentences on convicted people, and if the COURT decides that jail is inevitable then so be it.

I am not “advocating” taking children from their families or putting them in care. I am saying that if a child is found to be at serious risk of FGM then social services need to do their job to protect the child, which may indeed involve removing them from the family. Or may not. I advocate the enquiries being diligently made, and if the evidence is there, then the required steps to be taken, not shirked from for fear of upsetting some section of a community or other or some religious or cultural sensibilities or whatever.


A similar argument to mine, except I would tell them that their practices are absolutely and unequivocally forbidden, whether they are “convinced” is not my concern. They need to know that desisting is not optional.


We’re not in Africa.


I’m glad you have clearly therefore got the point, even if you have a weird way of admitting it..


I am assuming that the swear filter changed your original adjective for the parents to “loving”?
If your absurd scenario ever happened, including the strange case of a bay FGM, with “no ill effects” (how can having had your clitoris cut off constitute “no ill effects”, even to your way of thinking?) then I would explain that they were in jail because UK justice had considered all relevant facts and evidence and rules that this was the most just outcome. The court decided they deserved it.

I really don’t know why you would propose a weird scenario where somehow the passage of time mitigates the evil of the act. What if a baby girl’s father has repeatedly raped and buggered her some years ago? She may be less likely to have ill effects as serious as those from FGM and she may be more likely to remember FGM than rape or buggery as a toddler. Once his offending eventually comes to light, should he escape prosecution when she has no knowledge or any ill effects from a procedure that was performed when she was a baby?
Obviously not, so why would it be any different if the crime was FGM rather than any other serious crime?

I'm in the middle of watching a film right now, but I'll watch it on iPlayer later.

What should be done to prevent this? By whom?



No, I'm not citing that as saying that it makes it all ok. I'm saying that immigrant women are being questioned in the street about a practice that has been performed on them, their mothers and grandmothers. If they also happened to have a young daughter who they performed this traditional ritual on in the last decade they have probably unwittingly committed a crime that you are insisting is worthy of sending them to jail and having all their children taken from them.

If a mother knows all about the laws and says "screw you, she's my daughter and I'll do what I want to her" then you have a case that she's guilty of child abuse. But if she hasn't been reading the Guardian articles you have and doesn't know that she's even committed a crime then treating her as a child abuser is barbaric treatment for both her and her family.



A campaign that mainly involves investigating them, convicting them and taking their children away from them.



Unless a family is known to social services or reported by a teacher or doctor then most kids will go through life without being "protected" from sexual abuse. You are pretty much wanting every African immigrant to be automatically flagged as a potential child abuser simply because they have a daughter.



Time will tell whether the Rotherham report was an accurate representation of facts or an attention seeking report to shake the system up.

It also has to be said that while social services have a duty to protect children under their care, they don't have unlimited powers or resources. And just because a white English girl in care had an older Asian boyfriend, it doesn't mean he was pimping her out all the time.



Like I said, you're too extreme for the BNP. They admire you and will probably want to share fund raising ideas, but they can't risk being linked too closely with you.

Who are you wanting to put in charge of banning orders for African families who say they want to take their daughters to visit their grandparents?



You've made this suggestion many times in this thread.



You have argued clearly that FGM is child abuse and that the child abusers should be jailed and have their children taken from them.



Are you doing this by an ad campaign, or are you employing a team of enforcers to go and speak directly to nearly every African immigrant? Do you have the authority to spend all that money?



But it is a problem with mainly African immigrants, with the procedures performed in Africa. The Guardian readers will probably be 100% against this, and they'll have been roughly 99% against it before their campaign against it. But the campaigns against this, the plays that a British African woman performs in London, they're not much use if the immigrants aren't Guardian readers and aren't going to see her play.



The point is to not to engage with the 7 year old girl who is having the procedure on her and convince her why it's needed, because very few people here ever thought it was needed. The point is that we need to engage with African parents and the African villagers who are arranging these procedures and persuade them to stop.



Well you're assuming wrong.



If you read your links, there are plenty of girls who have had FGM performed on them and didn't actually know. There are British doctors and nurses who perform check ups on children and they don't know what to look for.



I wouldn't convict her if she stabbed you to death. If your car was blown up in an attempt on your life I wouldn't consider them terrorists, I'd consider them freedom fighters.



You consider it to be an evil act. Many African women don't. I personally believe that African women's viewpoint on African women's vagina's are actually worth more than yours.

I think that many Papua New Guinean tribes have screwed up traditions with their boys (and probably girls) which would definitely be considered child abuse in the west. I implore you to go and educate them about their abuse of their children and I will mourn your death when they kill you and eat you.



Virtually 100% of the UK are united in their disgust of child abusers. If public opinion was followed by the government then the punishment for child abuse would probably be slow death.

The same clearly cannot be said for FGM in Africa. There are millions of people who are for FGM, have had it performed on them and want it performed on their children.

They are clearly not the same issues, and I think you are in a very small minority of people who think they are.

Obviously, they should not be permitted to leave the country, and equally obviously, by the only people able to prevent them, the government. As they indicate they plan to do.


Please desist from making up opinions and attributing them to me. I will repeat once more that IF a crime has potentially been committed then it SHOULD be investigated and a decision taken on what if any action follows, in the time honoured way that our judicial process has worked for centuries. I am saying that IF a child is at risk (for example if one child in the past had FGM and there are young girls therefore at risk) Social Services SHOULD investigate and take whatever steps their investigations lead them to take.

The caveat is that neither the police, CPS or Social Services should hold back from doing their duty through either improper political pressure, or fear of upsetting vested interests, or being accused wrongly of racism or whatever. Like the statue, Justice should be blind, and applied equally to all. That includes their personal mitigation explanations and circumstances.

Now for fcsk sake stop parroting this ludicrous misrepresentation of my views, as it is getting boring.


I entirely disagree, and am quite shocked you would suggest this. You seem to have done a U-turn as weren’t you suggesting basically laissez faire before, or have I missed something?


Your most ridiculous straw man to date! How do you make this stuff up?


Because until you pointed this out, the world thought Social Services had unlimited money and manpower. What would we do without your insight?


How crass and how insulting to the girls so badly let down in the Rotherham and other cases. No person has made such an outrageous suggestion. If we are looking at Rotherham then we have very young teenage girls and even pre-teens being systematically groomed and then being led captive into a lengthy period of sexual abuse and degradation very often by older men, even being transported around different cities to be used for sex. And you have th disgusting nerve to talk of “a white English girl in care had an older Asian boyfriend” when that is not remotely the issue at all.


What an utter asshole comment, I will not dignify such bilge with a response.


Your straw men are becoming increasingly embarrassing for you.



Well spotted, It is. I remain in the dark as to whether you agree. Some of the time you seem to suggest that while you are not in favour of it, we should let it go as it’s only being done by ignorant immigrants who don’t get it’s wrong. Where we differ is that I would not allow or condone it in the UK under any circumstances. Not for any child. Not in any community.


You are really on form for your straw men today, aren’t you? Are you involved in some sort of competition, like the Oxenhope Straw Race? I mean, they just keep on coming. I have made my view crystal clear, and it is not hard to understand, but don’t let that stop you. I will repeat it for your convenience, but don’t let me stop you from continuingto claim you know what I think better than I doI do not advocate ignoring crime due to cultural or religious differences, which is what I understand you do.

If a parent is guilty of a crime then they should be dealt with by the criminal law. I am not “advocating” jailing them, I have faith in the criminal courts to, in the main, impose the correct sentences on convicted people, and if the COURT decides that jail is inevitable then so be it.

I am not “advocating” taking children from their families or putting them in care. I am saying that if a child is found to be at serious risk of FGM then social services need to do their job to protect the child, which may indeed involve removing them from the family. Or may not. I advocate the enquiries being diligently made, and if the evidence is there, then the required steps to be taken, not shirked from for fear of upsetting some section of a community or other or some religious or cultural sensibilities or whatever.'"

I'm not going to go through each point in your post again because it's clearly going nowhere.

IMO you are clearly in favour of prosecuting parents, jailing them labeling them as child abusers and having their children taken off them. I think this is blatantly clear in many of your posts, no matter how much you choose to deny it. This is what you think should happen and you are blaming the British authorities for not making it happen.

I do not believe that any other country prosecutes parents for this, all of the prosecutions that I've read about have been of people who either perform the procedures or arrange them. I do not believe anti-FGM campaigners would support the prosecution of parents. If you know of people who are, by all means post links to them.

Based on everything I've read about FGM I am against it. I do not believe I have ever made any arguments in favour of FGM. My arguments are against what I consider to be your crackpot solutions.

Don't need an opinion, I have put it in writing. You should read it instead of trying to invent stuff.


Hypothetical scenario for you:

1. Family X has a girl at suspected risk of FGM

2. Authorities engage with the family, and do what they can to explain both why we do not permit FGM, and that if they were to go ahead they would be committing child abuse which could have serious consequences.

3. Despite the above, the girl shortly afterwards is smuggled abroad, and subjected to FGM, and in exactly the manner described in the blood-curdling account I linked to earlier, causing serious physical and psychological harm to the girl. This comes to light when she is admitted to hospital seriously ill with complications and infection.

Do you think the parents should face any form of investigation and potential prosecution for this, or is it your argument that they should be exempt?

The mutilated girl has 2 younger sisters. Do you think despite what has happened, Social Services and all other authorities should just leave the family alone, and let the same fate befall these girls?

I've read it. You clearly classify FGM as child abuse and argue for prosecuting and jailing parents.

You're the one that said 60,000 females in the UK have suffered FGM. Unless they were all deserted by their families this means 60,000 families that practised FGM are still here. Why do you think that is? Maybe because the State has hitherto turned an almost totally blind eye?



I reject your question. I've no interest in investigating the hypothetical wishes of hypothetical people in other countries, nor do I "wish" for parents of females in this country to be prosecuted for it. As I've vainly explained several times but you're stuck on "transmit". IF THEY ARE FOUND TO HAVE COMMITTED OFFENCES then the law should apply to them like it applies to me. That is all.

You think even if they commit an offence they should be let off because they are parents. I think that decision is neither mine nor yours to make. The authorities need to make it, and whatever it was, fine, if due process has taken place. My problem is that we have been doing practically NOTHING, seemingly on the unacceptable grounds of how undoubtedly hard it is to do something, and the equally or more unacceptable grounds that we should act, but are scared to, as we don't want to cause upset.

What I "wish" for is the prevention of FGM to female residents of the UK and if FGM crime / abuse [idoes[/i take place then the UK to deal with it under due process, and not turn a blind eye.