| FORUMS > The Sin Bin > Should Iain Duncan Smiths expenses be capped at £26k a year? |
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| Quote: DaveO "You and Coach don't know what you are talking about re child benefit.
It was first introduced as the Family Allowance after WWII when the Welfare State was created based on Beverage's recommendations. One of the main reasons it was introduced was to ensure money was paid to the mother to ensure the father didn't get his hands on it and spend it down the pub (still as good a reason today as back then). The other main reason was to try and make sure children were not raised in poverty. The reason it is a universal benefit (so well off people get it as well as the less well off) with no means testing was also down to Beverage who thought all benefits should be universal as means testing always introduces a very high marginal tax rate for those who earn just enough to lose the entire benefit.
Now no doubt the pair of you think child benefit and perhaps other benefits should not exist at all but if you do that is because not only do you not understand child benefit you don't understand the concept of the Welfare State either. It is not, as the Daily mail would have you believe, designed to be some sort of spongers paradise but something we all contribute to and will all benefit from at different stages in our lives. This is also why Beverage wanted any benefits available to be free from means testing. The logic being if you receive a benefit, such as child benefit, it should not decrease or vanish once get a job that earns X amount because if it did then why bother getting a job that hits you with a stupendous rate of marginal tax? This idea is based on the key fact that the Welfare Sate is something everyone takes out of as well as pays into throughout their lives. It gives you a stake in the system because it is not as you seem to believe something you alone pay for just for the benefit of others. You too will benefit from it at some stage (if the Tories do not succeed in wrecking it completely). Maybe not via child benefit if you do not have kids but through the NHS or help if unemployed etc.
What the Welfare State is not supposed to be is a means tested safety net. No doubt that alternative appeals to the greedy and selfish "I am all right jack" brigade but if they only thought about it for a minute they would realise they are part of the system (in a beneficial way at some point) as much as anyone else.
So what the government is doing by including child benefit in the proposed benefits cap is completely undermining the principles under which it, as part of the Welfare State, was conceived. Less well off people are gong to lose it while a family on a joint income of £80K will keep it. You could not get further away from what Beverage envisaged if you tried.
As to child benefit being a benefit at all in that why pay people for having kids, it is there to help prevent child poverty (which goes out of the window with the benefits cap) and also to enable people to afford to have kids (a good thing with an ageing population). The fact well off people get it is because as I said, they are also part of the Welfare State and so are getting a little bit back for their contributions as is only right and proper.
It is a triumph of right wing propaganda that people get so incensed about benefits and benefit fraud when by the governments own figures it (benefit fraud) is exactly 1/10th of the amount of money lost to uncollected taxes (£1.5bn compared to £15bn per year). That is tax actually owed to the tax man but not collected, not tax legally avoided due to clever tax lawyers.'"
Great post  |
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| Quote: wrencat1873 "Modern politics is without principle, it is governed by what the banks and big business want.'"
I've corrected this for you. |
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| Quote: El Barbudo "Yeah, let's punish the kids, it's their own fault for having crap parents.'"
Do you think the kids with crap parents are going to see any of the benefit money anyway? I doubt it somehow. |
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| Quote: SomersetSaint "Do you think the kids with crap parents are going to see any of the benefit money anyway? I doubt it somehow.'"
And that's a valid reason not to pay it?
Let's extend your logic a little: why bother treating those with long-term illnesses? They're gonna die anyway |
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| Quote: cod'ead "And that's a valid reason not to pay it?
Let's extend your logic a little
The argument was that we pay benefits because they support the children, you appear to have accepted my argument that in actual fact they probably don't. I would argue that to bring a child up well can cost very little, it takes more thought than to simply dress them from head to toe in the latest designer gear, or to sit them in front of a 50" LCD tv, or hook them up to a play station whilst they eat their regular evening big mac.
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| Quote: SomersetSaint "The argument was that we pay benefits because they support the children, you appear to have accepted my argument that in actual fact they probably don't. I would argue that to bring a child up well can cost very little, it takes more thought than to simply dress them from head to toe in the latest designer gear, or to sit them in front of a 50" LCD tv, or hook them up to a play station whilst they eat their regular evening big mac.'"
Do you honestly believe that a first child can be provided for on £20 a week?
Should they crawl around naked? What about things like nappies, formula, clothing, prams, cots & bedding? Does that just fall out of the sky?
And you still haven't explained why a rich person should receive child benefit but you reckon poor ones should not |
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www.telegraph.co.uk/family/83595 ... 10848.html
The cost of raising a child to their 21st birthday is estimated at £210,848 or £10,040 a year, £836 a month or £27.50 a day.
So unless you are getting more than that in child benefit you are running a net loss for every child.
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www.telegraph.co.uk/family/83595 ... 10848.html
The cost of raising a child to their 21st birthday is estimated at £210,848 or £10,040 a year, £836 a month or £27.50 a day.
So unless you are getting more than that in child benefit you are running a net loss for every child.
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| Quote: SomersetSaint "I would argue that to bring a child up well can cost very little,'"
Would that that were the case. |
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| Quote: SomersetSaint "The argument was that we pay benefits because they support the children, you appear to have accepted my argument that in actual fact they probably don't. I would argue that to bring a child up well can cost very little, it takes more thought than to simply dress them from head to toe in the latest designer gear, or to sit them in front of a 50" LCD tv, or hook them up to a play station whilst they eat their regular evening big mac.'"
Bring up 3 kids (not privately educated, etc) has probably cost us between £1.2 M and £1.5 M at today's prices. |
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| Quote: SomersetSaint " ... I would argue that to bring a child up well can cost very little...'"
Go ahead.
As Prince Charles said, "I'm all ears". |
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| Quote: sally cinnamon "www.telegraph.co.uk/family/8359516/Parenting-pressures-cost-of-raising-a-child-now-210848.html
The cost of raising a child to their 21st birthday is estimated at £210,848 or £10,040 a year, £836 a month or £27.50 a day.
So unless you are getting more than that in child benefit you are running a net loss for every child.'"
I have 3 kids and trust me I earn nowhere near your mythical £2500 a month let alone spend it on them, yet they are happy, well educated and well loved. |
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| Quote: SomersetSaint "I have 3 kids and trust me I earn nowhere near your mythical £2500 a month let alone spend it on them, yet they are happy, well educated and well loved.'"
Are you including the £200 per month child benefit in your calculations? |
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| Quote: Dally "Bring up 3 kids (not privately educated, etc) has probably cost us between £1.2 M and £1.5 M at today's prices.'"
Judging by what you and your offspring have posted here I would say you have had a poor return on investment. |
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| Quote: cod'ead "Are you including the £200 per month child benefit in your calculations?'"
Yes. £2500 a month on 3 kids is way out of my league. |
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| Quote: SomersetSaint "Yes. £2500 a month on 3 kids is way out of my league.'"
Yet you would want to see someone else with three kids be denied that £200 per month? |
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