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Quote: Mintball "Don't Cry For Me Argentina[/i is one of the best things that LW has written. I think it stands up against a great many songs by a great many other composers. I think it has complexity musically and is good lyrically. It's probably fair to say it's now a 'standard' and be can sung on its own and even in stylistically different ways. Given all that, it's probably fair to say that it's on a par with [iYou'll Never Walk Alone[/i.

But then I have never said that LW has never written a decent song. However, my initial point remains

On This Night Of A Thousand Stars and Another Suitcase In Another Hall are both reasonably close, I'd say.



Quote: Mintball "A good popular show has to be more than one song. Okay, one song might become more famous than any other, but you need more than one good song in that show.


But for a really good popular composer of musicals, there has to be more than one good (or even great) song per show.

'"


But I think a lot of his shows do have a number of 'good' songs in them. Certainly as many as other composers in the same genre. And most shows only have one 'great' number in them. Taking Joseph (it's the one I know best) as an example, it might not have loads of songs that have become standards in their own right, but I think all the songs work well in the context of the production and none are unpleasant to listen to. Surely the job of a composer in musical theatre is to compose songs that work well in the show first and foremost. Anything else is a bonus.

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OK Minty, just to save me the trouble, cos I can't be bothered and this is your bag anyway...........
Since this seems to be key to what makes someone great in an objective way, what do the 'experts' say about Lloyd Webber?

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"You are working for Satan." [i:2886spie]Kirkstaller[/i:2886spie] "Dare to know!" [i:2886spie]Immanuel Kant[/i:2886spie] "Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" [i:2886spie]Elbert Hubbard[/i:2886spie] "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." [i:2886spie]Oscar Wilde[/i:2886spie] [url=http://thevoluptuousmanifesto.blogspot.co.uk:2886spie][color=#4000FF:2886spie]The Voluptuous Manifesto[/color:2886spie][/url:2886spie] – thoughts on all sorts of stuff.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_1977.jpg



Quote: Stand-Offish "OK Minty, just to save me the trouble, cos I can't be bothered and this is your bag anyway...........
Since this seems to be key to what makes someone great in an objective way, what do the 'experts' say about Lloyd Webber?'"


To borrow from Wikipedia

In interviews promoting Amused to Death, Roger Waters, formerly of Pink Floyd, claimed that Lloyd Webber had plagiarised short chromatic riffs from the 1971 song "Echoes" for sections of The Phantom of the Opera, released in 1986; nevertheless, he decided not to file a lawsuit regarding the matter.

The songwriter Ray Repp made a similar claim about the same song, but insisted that Lloyd Webber stole the idea from him. Unlike Roger Waters, Ray Repp did decide to file a lawsuit, but the court eventually ruled in Lloyd Webber's favour.

Rick Wakeman, on his Grumpy Old Rockstar tour of 2008, accused Lloyd Webber of borrowing the main riff for the Phantom of the Opera tune from a section of his 1977 work "Judas Iscariot" from the album Criminal Record.

Lloyd Webber has also been accused of plagiarising Puccini, most notably in Requiem and The Phantom of the Opera. In the Program Guide for the San Francisco Opera's performance (2009–2010 season) of Puccini's Girl of the Golden West, on page 42, it states: "The climactic phrase in Dick Johnson'a aria, "Quello che taceta," bears a strong resemblance to a similar phrase in the Phantom's song, "Music of the Night," in Lloyd Webber's 1986 musical The Phantom of the Opera.

Following the musical's success, the Puccini estate filed suit against Lloyd Webber accusing him of plagiarism and the suit was settled out of court.

Lloyd Webber has also been accused of plagiarism by Dutch composer Louis Andriessen, who described him as "yet to think up a single note; in fact, the poor guy's never invented one note by himself."

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"You are working for Satan." [i:2886spie]Kirkstaller[/i:2886spie] "Dare to know!" [i:2886spie]Immanuel Kant[/i:2886spie] "Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" [i:2886spie]Elbert Hubbard[/i:2886spie] "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." [i:2886spie]Oscar Wilde[/i:2886spie] [url=http://thevoluptuousmanifesto.blogspot.co.uk:2886spie][color=#4000FF:2886spie]The Voluptuous Manifesto[/color:2886spie][/url:2886spie] – thoughts on all sorts of stuff.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_1977.jpg



rlA bit dense but interesting.rl

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Quote: Mintball "snip'"

icon_lol.gif A nice balanced response.

To borrow from his own site and Wiki:
1 Oscar (Best Original Song) + 2 nominations
1 Golden Globe (Best Original Song) + 1 nomination
7 Tony awards
7 Laurence Olivier awards
3 Grammy awards
14 Ivor Novello awards
The Triple Play award from the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers
American Songwriters’ Hall of Fame
Praemium Imperiale award for music 1995
Richard Rodgers award for Excellence in Musical Theatre 1996
London Critics’ Circle Award for Best Musical 2000 (I'm assuming Minty didn't vote for him) icon_smile.gif
2 International Emmy Awards
Knighted in 1992 for services to the theatre throughout the world.
Early in 1998, Andrew was honoured with Variety’s first British Entertainment Personality Of The Year Award.
Star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame for live theatre (1993)
Kennedy Honors 2006
Woodrow Wilson Award for Public Service 2008
1988 Drama Desk Award for Outstanding Orchestrations for The Phantom of the Opera

Cats, together with Starlight Express and Jesus Christ Superstar, gave Andrew the three longest-running musicals in British theatre history. Andrew is also the first person to have a trio of musicals running in London and New York.

Many of those awards are voted for and decided on by experts in the same field. Not bad for a non-credible plagiarist.

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Quote: Cronus "

I thought that too. It's almost as if Minty just picked the bit that supported her view!

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"You are working for Satan." [i:2886spie]Kirkstaller[/i:2886spie] "Dare to know!" [i:2886spie]Immanuel Kant[/i:2886spie] "Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" [i:2886spie]Elbert Hubbard[/i:2886spie] "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." [i:2886spie]Oscar Wilde[/i:2886spie] [url=http://thevoluptuousmanifesto.blogspot.co.uk:2886spie][color=#4000FF:2886spie]The Voluptuous Manifesto[/color:2886spie][/url:2886spie] – thoughts on all sorts of stuff.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_1977.jpg



Quote: Cronus "... London Critics’ Circle Award for Best Musical 2000 (I'm assuming Minty didn't vote for him)
Actually, I was thing about this and realised that the date of that award was shortly after I had resigned form the organisation in question, since I'd moved to a job that did not involve reviewing.

And look what happened ...

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Quote: Mintball "To borrow from Wikipedia

In interviews promoting Amused to Death, Roger Waters, formerly of Pink Floyd, claimed that Lloyd Webber had plagiarised short chromatic riffs from the 1971 song "Echoes" for sections of The Phantom of the Opera, released in 1986; nevertheless, he decided not to file a lawsuit regarding the matter.

The songwriter Ray Repp made a similar claim about the same song, but insisted that Lloyd Webber stole the idea from him. Unlike Roger Waters, Ray Repp did decide to file a lawsuit, but the court eventually ruled in Lloyd Webber's favour.

Rick Wakeman, on his Grumpy Old Rockstar tour of 2008, accused Lloyd Webber of borrowing the main riff for the Phantom of the Opera tune from a section of his 1977 work "Judas Iscariot" from the album Criminal Record.

Lloyd Webber has also been accused of plagiarising Puccini, most notably in Requiem and The Phantom of the Opera. In the Program Guide for the San Francisco Opera's performance (2009–2010 season) of Puccini's Girl of the Golden West, on page 42, it states

Yes, I realised that he was accused of plagiarism and I wouldn't know if he deliberately copied extracts of previous works or not.

I would say that most musical style is derivative.
Musicians are a product in the main of the accumulated wealth of their experience with others people's music.
Just as you are the product of your accumulated experiences, granted not in music especially, but to some degree.
So just who is original?

It is also possible to reproduce music based on something you have heard before quite accidentally with no intention to plagiarise.
Obviously, if this is happening often, you have to wonder about the integrity of the composer.

Sometimes it is quite deliberate that one might chose a piece of music as the basis to compose another of your own. I don't think that is uncommon or for that matter necessarily plagiarism. You might use the structure as a base.

Is it the question of his originality then that makes you doubt his worth?

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The only comment I have about Webber is that when I was 11 'ish we did a production of Jesus Christ Superstar at my school (not long after it was written I guess). Our school couldn't afford to pay the large chunk of cash required to be allowed to perform all the music so we had to read out 70% of the musical and act it without music. We were only allowed to perform the clearly defined "songs" with the music. It was excrutiating.
Money raised went to the school fund, Webber's production company made no exceptions. The Lord was getting his cut.

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Quote: DHM "The only comment I have about Webber is that when I was 11 'ish we did a production of Jesus Christ Superstar at my school (not long after it was written I guess). Our school couldn't afford to pay the large chunk of cash required to be allowed to perform all the music so we had to read out 70% of the musical and act it without music. We were only allowed to perform the clearly defined "songs" with the music. It was excrutiating.
Money raised went to the school fund, Webber's production company made no exceptions. The Lord was getting his cut.'"


If only there had been millions of other musicals your school could have chosen to put on.

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Quote: Stand-Offish "Yes, I realised that he was accused of plagiarism and I wouldn't know if he deliberately copied extracts of previous works or not.

I would say that most musical style is derivative.
Musicians are a product in the main of the accumulated wealth of their experience with others people's music.
Just as you are the product of your accumulated experiences, granted not in music especially, but to some degree.
So just who is original?

It is also possible to reproduce music based on something you have heard before quite accidentally with no intention to plagiarise.
Obviously, if this is happening often, you have to wonder about the integrity of the composer.

Sometimes it is quite deliberate that one might chose a piece of music as the basis to compose another of your own. I don't think that is uncommon or for that matter necessarily plagiarism. You might use the structure as a base.

Is it the question of his originality then that makes you doubt his worth?'"


Reminds me of Robert Palmers legal defence to charges that he had plagiarised "Some Guys Have All The Luck", not just the tune but the title too, he surmised that he must have heard the original tune when walking past an open window somewhere icon_biggrin.gif

Paul McCartney too is said to have played the tune "Yesterday" to several people before recording it as he had woken up one morning with the tune in his head and was convinced that it wasn't his tune but one that he must have overheard.

And I'll throw my professional guitarist cousin into the mix as he was actually sued for plagiarism after he wrote and recorded one of those novelty football songs for Leeds Utd (when they had a football team), had a deal with the club, had some of the team in the chorus, was all set to sell at least 40 thousand copies to the supporters when someone in Manchester claimed that it was his chorus, it went to a pre-trial hearing and he had to pay for a professor of music from Manchester to testify that the sequence of notes in the chorus were not similar enough to be plagiarised - by the time the legal case was conceeded (to him) he'd lost the window of opportunity to release the record and it was dropped.

I helped him produce 70 demo tapes of his single one night, it was cr@p, the world was saved from earache.

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Quote: McLaren_Field "Reminds me of Robert Palmers legal defence to charges that he had plagiarised "Some Guys Have All The Luck", not just the tune but the title too, he surmised that he must have heard the original tune when walking past an open window somewhere It can happen though, even though a defence like that might look dodgy.
He should have perhaps have said that it came from his subconscious based on something he may have heard.
And who's to say it didn't?
Mind you the title? That's harder to explain. icon_wink.gif

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The older I get, the better I was Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator." cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan:2051.jpg



Quote: McLaren_Field "pick Sinatra/Nelson Riddle's version.'"


Now if you want to hear Nelson Riddle fronted by a truly great voice, look no further than the three albums by Linda Ronstadt

And now that you mentioned Robert Palmer, have a listen to his Riding High album, especially his duet with Carnie Wilson, the very best version of Baby It's Cold Outside ever recorded

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Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif



Quite ironic that a true muso like Palmer would be accused of plagiarism. In fact, there's only 7 notes and every tune there is or ever will be is made up of them. All you can change is the combinations. Bearing this in mind it never ceases to amaze me how we keep on and on hearing new music but it keeps on coming.

I am not happy with the way music copyright is defended, usually by people who are not the composer or artists but just "own the rights". One good example was The Verve having to give up every penny from the superb Bittersweet Symphony, which is now perversely credited to Jagger and Richards. (And I'm sure The Verve would have won that one if they'd had the cash to fight it to a hearing).

I could write the catch to a hit tune tomorrow by hitting say teh notes BCF#AbCDB#. I could then find some guy claimed he actually wrote that sequence of notes in a work in 1987 and so I breached his copyright even though his tune may never have been released.

I even remember a song with a track containing a period of silence. Litigation ensued by some dozy muppet who insisted he had recorded a silent track so the copyright to silence was his.

Have an old vinyl album by Linda Ronstadt, "Heart like A Wheel", classy stuff.

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