I think that's a fair enough idea in principle. However, from an Irish perspective (their population is about 8% the size of the UK's and their economy is about 12% the size of ours), having bigger countries like Germany and France at their back maybe appeals. And it is an EU border too, so the other 26 won't want the Irish to go freestyling too much.

The two governments are desperate to avoid a hard border - and that's why there is a backstop, so there can't be one.

The problem is, there are no alternative arrangements that work and this is, obviously, a very 'special' border. However long negotiators were locked in a room, I don't think that'll change.

Time limit - what then? Hard border, presumably.
Unilateral withdrawal - hard border
Technological or trusted trader scheme - probably belongs more in the next round of negotiations on a comprehensive trade deal, if we don't go for a customs union. And we actually get that far.

There's a trust issue. For people who view the EU as a malign conspiracy to destroy the UK's sovereignty, I suppose it is easy to imagine this is all to trap us in the backstop forever. If you don't, then it just looks like a sensible precaution to avoid reigniting a civil war in the six counties.

It exposes a weakness in our position rather than creating it.

It's a shame a softer Brexit was never seriously considered by May. Especially as the fairly full-on approach she took hasn't appeased those it was meant to. For all that she was a quiet remainer - she was a remainer, and she maybe overcompensated. On some aspects anyway - I'm sure she's genuinely enthusiastic about ending free movement of people, for example. As are many, in fairness.

I think this does a decent job of explaining why pro-remain/anti-leave arguments failed to convince many working class voters, and continue to fail to do so. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ss-leavers The synopsis: Many working-class leavers were not motivated by self-interest, but by values. Well-off liberals who back tax rises should understand that. That's why the 'nobody voted to be poorer' slogan bugs me - it just misses the point completely. It isn't always about the economy, stupid!

I think this does a decent job of explaining why pro-remain/anti-leave arguments failed to convince many working class voters, and continue to fail to do so. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ss-leavers The synopsis: Many working-class leavers were not motivated by self-interest, but by values. Well-off liberals who back tax rises should understand that. That's why the 'nobody voted to be poorer' slogan bugs me - it just misses the point completely. It isn't always about the economy, stupid!

There are some right thickos I admit, and not just among the working classes or leave voters by any means. There are some people you just can't reach. But focusing ever more narrowly on Mondeo man or Worcester woman or the key demographic du jour pushed a lot of people to the fringes who should be in the mainstream. A couple of posters have asked 'who should I vote for?', and I think a lot of people feel like they're not being represented - and they're right, frankly. The centre needs reach out and develop a broader and more compelling narrative or it'll shrink even more and our politics will become even more polarized, unpleasant, dysfunctional and maybe even dangerous.

To me that doesn't actually have much to do with the EU, but not everybody shares my worldview. And it's not like another more relevant change was on the ballot.

We shouldn't 'other' leavers (except the EDL-types, because y'know feck them) because it'll be self-fulfilling. Equally, the reverse is true.

The problem with this is, just who are "the centre" represented by.
The Lib-dems are a completely busted flush and the other parties have each taken a step away from the centre ground.
I wonder just how much Clegg regrets screwing over his party for a brief moment in the limelight and one where they utterly and completely failed to have ANY of their policies come to the fore.
I know that they tried to take credit for a couple of side issues but, they were barely crumbs from the Tory table and this has set them back 20 years and possibly done irrevocable damage.
Mind you, they (the Lib-dems) are the only party with a truly unified Brexit position, albeit not the one that "the people" voted for.

Clegg’s deal was an absolute shocker.

I vaguely recall one of their leading figures, possibly Danny Alexander, defending it based on the relative number of MPs they and the Conservatives had. Rather than trying to argue it should reflect share of the vote and push for more. Maybe he’d never heard of proportional representation.

When I suggest Cronus’ negotiation plan is unlikely to work, this is the nagging doubt at the back of my mind. Sometimes people just do inexplicably stupid things.

The DUP got a lot more for a lot less.

Just been watching the One Show, it seems that since the referendum they have been giving out Irish Passports like sweets, so if any of you are worried about you holidays, see if you have a long lost Irish relation. Problem solved.

They did and that's well done to them.
Clegg was just blinded by the spotlight and didn't realise the amount of power that his party actually had.
If they had managed just one serious piece of their manifesto, they would have grown as a party but, their chance has long gone now.

Well. Although I'm surprised the EU are the ones to put pressure on Ireland rather than vice versa, the Irish issue is swiftly becoming the decisive factor. https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/dublin- ... exit-deal/ https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.3776490 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t-backstop The language of the EU and the softening of Germany speaks volumes. They want Ireland to give up their irrational stance and get the feck on with agreeing something positive. The EU know the matter of the Irish border could force a no deal, and they are not happy about it. The fact is, a UK outside the EU still offers far more than an Ireland within the EU.

Well. Although I'm surprised the EU are the ones to put pressure on Ireland rather than vice versa, the Irish issue is swiftly becoming the decisive factor. https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/dublin- ... exit-deal/ https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.3776490 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t-backstop The language of the EU and the softening of Germany speaks volumes. They want Ireland to give up their irrational stance and get the feck on with agreeing something positive. The EU know the matter of the Irish border could force a no deal, and they are not happy about it. The fact is, a UK outside the EU still offers far more than an Ireland within the EU.

Funny old world isn’t it ? If you fly air lingus from Dublin to the USA you are cleared for USA entry by American customs officials in Dublin Airport. So the USA border in this instance is in Dublin.A simple practical solution to avoid congestion at USA airports. The Northern Ireland border problem is only a problem because the Brussels bureaucracy is making it a problem. Unfortunately the Irish government is dancing to the EU tune. Quite bizarre when both Eire and the U.K. both state they don’t want a border. Yet this scenario is potentially threatening the completion of the withdrawal agreement. Perhaps the EU doesn’t want a deal. Probably suits them to punish us as a warning to prevent any other country escaping the EU.
Meanwhile in the real world youth unemployment in Italy, Greece and Spain remains high. Macron sneers at us whilst the majority of France has seen living standards fall year on year. Vast parts of the country is in open revolt.I have quite a few friends who live in France they are extremely concerned at the present situation. Italy is slipping into a recession, they like the French soon take to the streets. Looking forward to Albania joining the EU apparently it won’t be long. I am certain they will make a positive contribution to the EU. On the other hand maybe not.

It's a damn sight easier to control a couple of hundred people getting on a plane, who cant do anything until the plane touches down, than it is to control the movement of goods and people accross an "open" borer between N. Ireland and Eire.
It's been pointed out many, many times just how rife "smuggling" was back in the day, especially in the border towns.
The old favourites of petrol and tobacco were bought and sold accross the border (in both directions) and the Irish (both halves) do love the old "cash transactions" and this is when the transfer of goods is open.

With respect you are missing my point, a problem with a border issue was identified and was resolved. Many ideas/solutions have been proposed to solve the Irish border problem. Unfortunately Varadkar is taking instructions from the EU bureaucrats, so is not offering any sensible ideas. Various reports have indicated the Irish beef industry will be hard hit with a hard Brexit, potentially large scale bankruptcy. I can fully understand the growing resentment in Eire that they didn’t create this situation but Varadkar and his puppet masters in Brussels need to realise time is ticking away.
Strange that people forget that before the EU customs union we traded successfully with Europe. We also trade successfully with the USA and the Far East, without the structure of a customs union.

We could trade "successfully" under WTO terms but, this may be at a lower level and it would also have certain inflationary pressures.
We also traded with a hard border in Northern Ireland but, I'm not sure that too many want to go back to those times.

The worst government lead by the worst prime minister this country has ever had is trying to win an argument, mainly within the Tories themselves, rather than negotiate the best deal we can.

It's laughable that people from within that group are saying the E.U. members are being awkward. A deal was negotiated and agreed. The situation now is that we either accept the deal, reject it and leave without one or, forget the whole thing and remain a member.

Its nothing to do with the E.U. It's entirely down to parliament unfortunately.

The world has changed. For example, since 1973 the ratio of trade to economic output has increased from 48% to 67%.

Out of interest, which alternative arrangement(s) do you think May should propose to the EU?

As I pointed out earlier on, people are often motivated by values as much or more than they are by economic self interest. That played a role in delivering Brexit. Looking at the links Cronus posted, it seems that Irish public opinion is at least as important as EU influence. If project fear didn’t work here, why would it work there? Given the history, i struggle to imagine much appetite there for caving in to self-entitled English pantomime villains like JRM, Boris Johnson and IDS. They don’t have the learned deference to our gormer toffs that afflicts some many English people.