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Quote: IR80 "rlquite a lot, actually.rl

if you take of those red tinted spectacles for a while.

Reduced the deficit (until Covid came along at least)
Record Public Sector investment
Delivering the will of the electorate by leaving the EU
Protecting our defence capability

and that is just in the early years, after Labour plunged us into recession.


they haven't engaged in illegal war, sold our economy down the river...

a damn sight more than Labour ever achieved.'"


Cant see the NHS on your list...........................
Maybe that wasn't started by the Tories icon_eek.gif

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As per IR80s request, I have taken off my red tinted spectacles for a while and this is what I’ve found in response to his claims of Tory successesReduced the deficit (until Covid came along at least) – partially true
• The national deficit before the 2008 crash was 3% of GDP it then rose to 10% in 2009/10. In Feb 2020 it was back to 2.7% of GDP – and as you say Covid will no doubt cause it to rise again. So, Labour fell foul of an International banking crash, the Tories are falling foul of an International pandemic.

Record Public Sector investment - wrong
• Public sector net investment was 3% of GDP in 2009. It then dropped to around 2% during the austerity years. It is projected to increase back up to 3% by 2023.

Delivering the will of the electorate by leaving the EU - wrong
• In 2016 52% of the electorate voted in favour of an undefined Brexit. In 2019 43% of the electorate voted in favour of the Brexit as set out in the Tory manifesto.
• The latest opinion polls show that 50% believe that leaving the EU was a mistake and only 36% believe it to have been the right decision

Protecting our defence capability - wrong
• Defence spending in 2020 is about 2.2% of GDP, a figure which has remained the around same since at least 2000.
• Cummings, (who spent some time in Russia) however is visiting key MOD sites prior to a defence review later this year, He has refused to appear in front of the Defence select Committee to explain what he is doing.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "Come on pal, what is your opinion on the handling of EXAM RESULTS, that is the topic here.
First failure - the exams should have been sat - no reason whatsoever for not holding the exams

Second failure - allowing ofqual to not robustly test the algorithm to ensure it would deliver fairness

Third failure - allowing teacher assessments to used - bonkers - teachers will overstate the grade - knowing it would be knocked back

Fourth failure - saying no u turn and then u turn

All in all a complete disaster - Labour would have simply taken the easy option of awarding based on teacher assessments to keep all their unions mates sweet.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "First failure - the exams should have been sat - no reason whatsoever for not holding the exams

Second failure - allowing ofqual to not robustly test the algorithm to ensure it would deliver fairness

Third failure - allowing teacher assessments to used - bonkers - teachers will overstate the grade - knowing it would be knocked back

Fourth failure - saying no u turn and then u turn

All in all a complete disaster - Labour would have simply taken the easy option of awarding based on teacher assessments to keep all their unions mates sweet.'"


I dont think you can say what Labour would have done, while they are in opposition ,all of this falls on Boris' shoulders.
The point here is that the party in charge have abjectly failed, on every aspect of the exam debacle.

I do agree that many exams could and should have taken place but, you can add that to the list of failings.

Where is Boris anyway.
Things are getting difficult again and he's gone AWOL.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "

All in all a complete disaster - Labour would have simply taken the easy option of awarding based on teacher assessments to keep all their unions mates sweet.'"


This is probably one of the strangest statements you have made. I and neither do you know what would have happened under a Labour government, you can of course surmise based on your Union bias. The problem is that the Conservatives are in charge and what they did despite the usual warnings caused a lot of confusion and hurt to students before resorting to what you believe would be the stance taken by Labour.
I suppose they made this decision not to support their union enemies but because it was the obvious outcome following their many failures. It is possible that a Labour government would have seen the problems coming several weeks ago and done things differently, they could not have done it worse.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "]I dont think you can say what Labour would have done, while they are in opposition ,all of this falls on Boris' shoulders.
The point here is that the party in charge have abjectly failed, on every aspect of the exam debacle.

I do agree that many exams could and should have taken place but, you can add that to the list of failings.

Where is Boris anyway.
Things are getting difficult again and he's gone AWOL.'"
]

Hmmm,think maybe you can.
The Welsh Assembly is Labour controlled,but they went along with the same method.
As did the SNP controlled and UUP controlled assemblies of Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Seems to me all the parties got this one wrong.

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Quote: Scarlet Pimpernell "This is probably one of the strangest statements you have made. I and neither do you know what would have happened under a Labour government, you can of course surmise based on your Union bias. The problem is that the Conservatives are in charge and what they did despite the usual warnings caused a lot of confusion and hurt to students before resorting to what you believe would be the stance taken by Labour.
I suppose they made this decision not to support their union enemies but because it was the obvious outcome following their many failures. It is possible that a Labour government would have seen the problems coming several weeks ago and done things differently, they could not have done it worse.'"


Labour were calling for this outcome all along - so you know exactly what Labour would have done - what did Labour do in Wales?

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Quote: Sal Paradise "Labour were calling for this outcome all along - so you know exactly what Labour would have done - what did Labour do in Wales?'"



Kirsty William's, the Welsh Education Minister, is a Liberal Democrat.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "Labour were calling for this outcome all along - so you know exactly what Labour would have done - what did Labour do in Wales?'"


Sorry Sal but, you are totally wrong.
There was a sequence of events that got us up to this point, right from virus arriving in the UK and through lockdown, school closures etc, etc.
Had Labour been at the helm, do you believe they would have taken exactly the same route ??
Some things they may have handled better and others, no doubt, worse.

However, the current mess falls firmly at the feet of Bojo.
His decisions, his style of leadership and of course him backing the beleaguered Education Minister.
To try and say things "would have been the same" is just plain daft and is just making excuses for this excuse of a government.
Bojo has everyone in his party nodding along, too afraid to question anything for fear of being booted into the long grass.

Also, you will perhaps recall me suggesting that blame for the handling of the covid crisis would e planted at the door of Public Health England, an organisation which has now been replaced.
How very convenient and responsibility for the mess now put at someone else's door. Spineless and two faced, lets see what happens next.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "Sorry Sal but, you are totally wrong.
There was a sequence of events that got us up to this point, right from virus arriving in the UK and through lockdown, school closures etc, etc.
Had Labour been at the helm, do you believe they would have taken exactly the same route ??
Some things they may have handled better and others, no doubt, worse.

However, the current mess falls firmly at the feet of Bojo.
His decisions, his style of leadership and of course him backing the beleaguered Education Minister.
To try and say things "would have been the same" is just plain daft and is just making excuses for this excuse of a government.
Bojo has everyone in his party nodding along, too afraid to question anything for fear of being booted into the long grass.

Also, you will perhaps recall me suggesting that blame for the handling of the covid crisis would e planted at the door of Public Health England, an organisation which has now been replaced.
How very convenient and responsibility for the mess now put at someone else's door. Spineless and two faced, lets see what happens next.'"

With no credible opposition, another Conservative win at the next GE.

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Quote: IR80 "With no credible opposition, another Conservative win at the next GE.'"


That's the first thing that you've said which could be right icon_eek.gif

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Quote: wrencat1873 "That's the first thing that you've said which could be right
That's the first thing you've said that is definitely wrong.

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

Abraham Lincoln

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Quote: silver2 "That's the first thing you've said that is definitely wrong.

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

Abraham Lincoln'"

seems to me you have been fooled for decades by the outmoded socialist ideal.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "Sorry Sal but, you are totally wrong.
There was a sequence of events that got us up to this point, right from virus arriving in the UK and through lockdown, school closures etc, etc.
Had Labour been at the helm, do you believe they would have taken exactly the same route ??
Some things they may have handled better and others, no doubt, worse.

However, the current mess falls firmly at the feet of Bojo.
His decisions, his style of leadership and of course him backing the beleaguered Education Minister.
To try and say things "would have been the same" is just plain daft and is just making excuses for this excuse of a government.
Bojo has everyone in his party nodding along, too afraid to question anything for fear of being booted into the long grass.

Also, you will perhaps recall me suggesting that blame for the handling of the covid crisis would e planted at the door of Public Health England, an organisation which has now been replaced.
How very convenient and responsibility for the mess now put at someone else's door. Spineless and two faced, lets see what happens next.'"


Had Labour been in charge lockdown would have been earlier and longer - their view is to dismantle the private sector - the more damage that can be done the better. Don't forget you had a shadow chancellor that was going to nationalise trains, utilities, broadband, generic drugs, education, supply of anything to the NHS etc.

Not a chance the exams would have happened under Labour - I am not saying the opening up of the schools would not have been handled better e.g. temporary facilities etc.

The teaching unions were well against any school opening apart from the one Starmer's kids go to no way Corbyn/McDonald would have challenged them - first job would have been relaxing union legislation including secondary picketing.

Would Labour have handled the rest of pandemic better than the Tories - I can't see how they could have done a worse job to be honest

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Moderator


I'm not a Labour voter but no one of any political persuasion should be happy at having a lackluster opposition. It is a pre-requisite for a vibrant Democracy, and utterly crucial for keeping the government of the day honest. The Conservatives demonstrated that you trample around the wilderness for quite a while (Ian Duncan-Smith, Michael Howard etc) before finding your way back to being credible government in waiting. Labour are on a very long road back from oblivion and it will take some time. But to pretend they haven't turned a corner under the new leader is wishful thinking by some.

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