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Quote: Mintball "Well the 'error' being in a) having intelligence that such an attack was being contemplated but doing nothing; b) cutting back on intelligence work related to al-Qaeda.'"

I remember attending a facinating talk by Stella Rimington, who backed up what several publications had found within a year or two of 9/11: namely, that in the States at that time you had any number of security agencies (CIA, NSA, FBI, DIA, DHS, state police, local police, amongst others), who BETWEEN THEM probably had the clues to prevent 9/11.

The problem was that intelligence sharing was almost non existent, with some of these agencies and indeed some departments within individual agencies competing against one another and therefore often being less than proactive in sharing intelligence.

If some central intelligence database had existed to put together all the pieces alarm bells would have rung. As it was, no-one had all the info in one place.

As for the conspiracy theorists...don't get me going. icon_evil.gif

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On this day in history.................1988.

Clapham Junction rail crash.
35 fatalities, many injured.

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Quote: Mintball "The conspiracy stuff is utterly ridiculous – not least because the mix of incompetence and stupidity alluded to above say it's not required.'"


The problem with "stupidity theory" and "incompetence theory", along with "sonambulist theory" (Reagan's favourite), "innocent cultural proclivities theory" and "unintended consequences theory" is not just that they have been tossed to the public with alarming frequency over the last fifty years, but that subsequent investigations have proven such to be either a distortion of the truth or a bare-faced lie.

I find it fascinating watching seemingly rational people contort themselves into knots attempting to convince anyone who'll listen that they don't believe the rich and powerful conspire to further their own interests - despite the fact that even the most biased, one-eyed power-worshipper (or Wigan Fan) could point to numerous contradictory events in recent history alone

The strange thing is this "willingness to believe" is never consistent. You, for instance, have regularly been one of George W. Bush's most enthusiastic critics. Moreover, on several occasions you have accused him of conspiratorial acts which, by any measure, are as morally abject as the most extreme indictments of 9/11 theorists.

Why is it that you don't believe a word that Bush says on Iraq (or Afghanistan for that matter), but you are quite willing to close the book on 9/11? I should point out that the Bush administration fell back on "stupidity theory" and "incompetence theory" after the toothless US media finally woke up (twelve months late) and began asking tough questions. Why is it that you feel entirely comfortable quoting Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine", an excellent and well-researched book that shows Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and company to be neither stupid nor incompetent and undoubtedly guilty of an extraordinary level of conspiracy and yet feel utterly confident in their innocence via a vis 9/11? I will remind you that Klein herself is considered by the right to be a "conspiracy theorist" and she certainly doesn't rule out at least some level of complicity.

Is it because you believe the evidence for and against both is far more compelling? If so I think you are either misinformed or just wrong. In the case of Iraqi WMD, Yellowcake, Bush & Blair's decision to go to war etc. there's no shortage of stupidity and/or incompetence to point at if that's where you believe the emphasis should be placed. OTOH, whilst I think it's safe to rule out some of the more fantastical 9/11 explanations (radio-controlled aeroplanes, controlled demolitions of the twin towers etc.), after reading quite a bit on the events from several sources I honestly cannot exclude the possibilities that Bush, Cheney et al. (a) knew that some attack was imminent, (b) knew the targets and precise dates or even (c) helped plan the attacks.

Conspiracy theorists are often accused of ignoring the ordinary in favour of the extraordinary. I think that's a fair argument. Personally, I'm worn out with the discussion over how the two towers collapsed. Whilst I accept the claim that skyscrapers have rarely (if ever) collapsed purely because of fire damage - it is entirely misleading to argue that a 400mph impact by a fully-laden commercial airliner produces exactly the same results. As for the detection of so-called "nano-thermite" in the building remains - even if true this would only constitute proof of existence (or a false positive), not its use as a demolition tool and certainly no conspiracy.

It is at this point where the "idiocracy theorists" make a fatal error"blowing the lid off Obama's plans for Concentration Camp USA"[/i you deserve every brickbat thrown at you. But not every investigator of 9/11 (or any other suspicious event, for that matter) is as reckless or stupid as Alex Jones. The truth is there are now many, many fine historians, investigative journalists, former members of the secret service etc. writing solid, well-researched material which raises some alarming questions about the roles of Bush, Cheney and company. No one book or article is conclusive. But viewed in context I think the question is nowhere near clear-cut and I'm certainly in two minds.

Of course, most people will choose to ignore such evidence completely, instead putting their faith in someone like Stella Rimmington (guffaw!) - who headed an organisation which specialises in lying, extraordinary rendition (a.k.a., torture), lying, toppling democratically elected leaders in favour of pliable dictators, lying etc. Whilst otherwise happy to attribute all manner of crooked political chicanery to these people they appear to think that beneath it all Bush, Blair, Reagan, Clinton etc. are fundamentally men of "good will", who act out of the right reasons and occasionally achieve the wrong results.

Unfortunately, when it comes to explaining how these men of "Good Will" could be so cold-blooded and/or ruthless as to "most crooked in history"[/i (BCCI).
- etc. etc. etc.

... they are mysteriously silent or fall back on the mind-boggling argument that some or all of the above are matters of fact - not conspiracy.

A Washington staffer at press conference in 1984 once asked Ronald Reagan"Why are we supplying covert support to the so-called Nicaraguan "Freedom Fighters"?.[/i

His illuminating answer was, [i"Because it would be against the law to do it overtly". [/i

When you think about it - this explains everything. It is the reason why lying is the national purpose of all powerful nations. The pretense (shot through even during the days of Greek democracy) that government cares about the people when all it really is concerned with is maintaining its own power.

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Great post.

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I have to say that i have viewed some of the conspiracy theorist DVDs If anyone wants them FREE just Pm me.

Some of the explanations sound convincing but are too complex technically for me to decide.

I dont know how hot a fire has to get to to buckle steel and make a building collapse bt there are two things which have always confused me which i have never got a satisfactory explanation for.

The first one is the damage to the pentagon which looks more like a rocket than a plane hitting it
and secondly the fact that the TV reported on the same day they had found the passport of one of the hijackerss in the wreckage of the Towers. I cannot believe that one of their passports mysteriously survived the crash, the fire, the collapse, was then picked up by someone on the ground and identified as being a hijacker on 8 hours

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Is anyone really saying that conspiracies don't exist and that governments are not populated by scheming, self-serving individuals? I doubt it.

But there can be a mixture of incompetence and conspiracy and 9/11 may have had both. But to think that that conspiracy involved the US government possibly helping to plan attacks on its own people is hard to fathom, given the risks and the probable 'trail' that would result.
They would be particularly wicked and stupid people to do that.
None of which disproves it of course.

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Quote: Stand-Offish "They would be particularly wicked and stupid people to do that.'"


Wicked enough to, say, arrange in secret (whilst not even in office) to have 200+ of your own citizens held hostage by a foreign regime for the best part of a year, kept in incarceration for [ilonger than necessary[/i in order to a) embarrass your opponent (who just happens to be the President of the United States) and b) claim credit for their release when you win the election?

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Quote: Durham Giant "I have to say that i have viewed some of the conspiracy theorist DVDs If anyone wants them FREE just Pm me.

Some of the explanations sound convincing but are too complex technically for me to decide.

I dont know how hot a fire has to get to to buckle steel and make a building collapse bt there are two things which have always confused me which i have never got a satisfactory explanation for.

The first one is the damage to the pentagon which looks more like a rocket than a plane hitting it
and secondly the fact that the TV reported on the same day they had found the passport of one of the hijackerss in the wreckage of the Towers. I cannot believe that one of their passports mysteriously survived the crash, the fire, the collapse, was then picked up by someone on the ground and identified as being a hijacker on 8 hours'"


There have been a couple of well presented docs on TV scientifically refuting many of the more common 9/11 conspiracy theories including the pentagon plane strike. I think this was one of themhttps://topdocumentaryfilms.com/911-conspiracies-fact-fiction/rl

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Quote: Mugwump "Wicked enough to, say, arrange in secret (whilst not even in office) to have 200+ of your own citizens held hostage by a foreign regime for the best part of a year, kept in incarceration for [ilonger than necessary[/i in order to a) embarrass your opponent (who just happens to be the President of the United States) and b) claim credit for their release when you win the election?'"

Way more.

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Quote: Mugwump "Wicked enough to, say, arrange in secret (whilst not even in office) to have 200+ of your own citizens held hostage by a foreign regime for the best part of a year, kept in incarceration for [ilonger than necessary[/i in order to a) embarrass your opponent (who just happens to be the President of the United States) and b) claim credit for their release when you win the election?'"

Way more.

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Quote: Durham Giant "I have to say that i have viewed some of the conspiracy theorist DVDs If anyone wants them FREE just Pm me.

Some of the explanations sound convincing but are too complex technically for me to decide.

I dont know how hot a fire has to get to to buckle steel and make a building collapse bt there are two things which have always confused me which i have never got a satisfactory explanation for.

The first one is the damage to the pentagon which looks more like a rocket than a plane hitting it
and secondly the fact that the TV reported on the same day they had found the passport of one of the hijackerss in the wreckage of the Towers. I cannot believe that one of their passports mysteriously survived the crash, the fire, the collapse, was then picked up by someone on the ground and identified as being a hijacker on 8 hours'"


Look, I'm all for people doing their own research on this issue. But there's time spent positively and time ed into the sewer.

Highly complex and technical questions such as whether the debris field and damage spread are consistent with a missle strike or a commercial airliner, or whether tiny puffs of smoke ejected from the WTC indicate the presence of explosives or pancaking of the internal superstructure weakened by collision and burning aviation fuel are interesting but ultimately best left to the experts. I agree that there are some unanswered questions - but it's going to take something pretty special to cause me to doubt the forensic examinations, which, by and large, were one of the few parts of the investigation which were handled well.

Why people choose to get bogged down with this stuff baffles me because even simple events, viewed retrospectively through the testimonies of more than one witness, can, via a process of fractal-like recursive magnification, generate any number of weird and very often difficult to explain phenomena. Invariably you end up talking probabilities rather than truths.

The endless investigations into the assassination of John F. Kennedy highlights the folly of getting involved in technical debates such as these. For years there has been a running battle between those people who claim Oswald could and did pull the trigger for the fatal shot and those who say it came from the "Grassy Knoll". A couple of years ago the BBC made a big play of "scientific proofs" it had discovered which put the question beyond all doubt. Expensive, cutting edge CGI coalesced with dizzying ballistics, drag co-efficients and so forth to ultimately rule out a frontal shot (and thus any conspiracy). The final scene was of the host and his collection of boffins toasting the wonders of modern science. To the uninitiated this must have seemed all very convincing and I'm sure there are very many today who, on the strength of it, are happy to agree with the Warren Commission's findings.

Unfortunately, the programme (for reasons I'd love to know) forgot to mention the more than insignificant fact that the best part of a dozen doctors, surgeons, coroners etc. (many of whom were experts in the treatment of gunshot wounds - this is Texas after all) at Parkland Hospital were adamant that the tiny hole in Kennedy's forehead was unmistakably an entry wound. Moreover, they later expressed complete amazement when the Warren Commission's own autopsy photos (taken later after the body had been illegally moved to the privacy of Bethesda Naval Hospital in Washington) appeared to show that entry and exit wounds had mysteriously exchanged places.

Returning to 9/11, for me there are far better avenues for investigation - many of which trace to the 9/11 Commission itself (something that Bush had literally to be bullied into), which at times seemed astonishingly unwilling to pursue the facts. Mind you, this isn't surprising when you consider that it was handled by the same cadre that gave Reagan and George H.W. Bush a free ride on the Iran-Contra scandal.

On the general question of conspiracy - my feelings are best summed up by the American political commentator and historian, Walter Karp (who knew a thing or two about power)"When it can be established that a number of political acts work in concert to produce a certain result the presumption is strong that the actors were aiming at the result in question. When it can be shown, in addition, that the actors have an interest in producing these results the presumptions become a fair certainty. No conspiracy theory is required. On the other hand, those who make blanket condemnations of conspiracy theories base their own view on a far fetched theory indeed, namely that whatever those in high office actually do they are essentially men of good will. According to this school of special pleading, the "King can do no wrong" doctrine, suitably updated, it is entirely proper to praise an American President for skillfully engineering some desirable result. But to ascribe to him the same skillful engineering of an indefensible one is to fall victim to political paranoia and conspiratorial fetishm."[/i

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On this day in history - 2003 - The capture of Saddam just outsie his home town of Tikrit which led to the ultimate, 'victors justice'.

Tariq Aziz is still being held under threat of execution.
An interesting piece on him from earlier this year.

rlhttps://www.globalresearch.ca/iraq-tariq-aziz-they-killed-our-country-we-are-all-victims-of-britain-and-america/28619rl

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Quote: Mugwump "The problem with "stupidity theory" and "incompetence theory", along with "sonambulist theory" ...'"


I was referring to 9/11 and 9/11 alone.

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Today in history was also the start of the rlNankingrl massacre in China when up to 300,000 Chinese were murdered by Japanese soldiers.

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Dec 13-2000.

Texas 7 maximum-security escapees.
A very dangerous bunch.



Saw the Werner Herzog interview with gang leader George Rivas (executed this year) on the C4 series [iDeath Row[/i earlier this year. A facinating story.

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Leigh
 Sat 17th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R10
15:00
Hull KR
v
Huddersfield
 Sun 18th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R10
15:00
Wakefield
v
Warrington
17:30
Castleford
v
Salford
 Thu 22nd May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
20:00
Leigh
v
Hull FC
 Fri 23rd May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
20:00
Huddersfield
v
St.Helens
20:00
Warrington
v
Hull KR
 Sat 24th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
14:30
Castleford
v
Leeds
17:30
Catalans
v
Wigan
 Sun 25th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
15:00
Wakefield
v
Salford
 Thu 29th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
20:00
Huddersfield
v
Leigh
 Fri 30th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
20:00
Hull KR
v
St.Helens
20:00
Salford
v
Wigan
 Sat 31st May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
14:30
Leeds
v
Wakefield
17:30
Catalans
v
Hull FC
 Sun 1st Jun 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
15:00
Warrington
v
Castleford
 Fri 13th Jun 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R13
20:00
Hull FC
v
Castleford
20:00
Hull KR
v
Catalans
 Sat 14th Jun 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R13
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Wigan
17:30
Leeds
v
Warrington
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds-Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield-Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Hull KR
Sat 8th Mar
SL
17:30
Catalans-Leeds
Sun 9th Mar
SL
17:30
Warrington-Wakefield
SL
17:30
Wigan-Huddersfield
Thu 20th Mar
SL
20:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Fri 21st Mar
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Warrington
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
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