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FORUMS > The Sin Bin > Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) |
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simpsons/simp006.gif :simpsons/simp006.gif |
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| Quote: POSTL "Ive just noticed that ive only got 3 reputation points on here mate, maybe I need to start giving out some hard cash to try and improve my pathetic reputation. BUT its not a bribe
I can help you with your reputation and we can call it news
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: wrencat1873 "I like your jigsaw analogy and this is going to take some serious piecing together.
It looks more and more like there cant be a soft border in Ireland if we actually leave and the warring factions just dont seem prepared to give on this issue.
Perhaps now, with the clock running so far, Mrs May is actually happy.
She either forces her deal through Parliament, as most MP's dont want a "no deal" outcome or, we crash out of the EU on WTO terms and she can toddle off into the political sunset and blame everyone else.
The one sure thing is with those tactics, we'll finally get to see just how much ground the EU will give (as no deal isn't something that they want either).'"
If I hear that word "Crash out" one more time I'm going to scream
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simpsons/simp006.gif :simpsons/simp006.gif |
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| Quote: POSTL "I really don't think we will leave without a deal mate, both sides want a deal their doesn't seem to be an appetite for it on either side. But as I mentioned earlier its got to be in the equation that's our back stop
Why were you "proud" ?
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| Quote: wrencat1873 "Why were you "proud" ?'"
Firstly because I was so convinced that most people even if they wanted to leave would just vote for the status quo and remain, but they didn't.
because when we joined what was the common market it was purely economics not rule makers
Hopefully we will put an end to this Freedom of movement. (my main reason)
Nothing should be higher in this country than British Law for all its faults (in my opinion)
Since Brexit I have heard on many occasions the some people say they voted to remain because they feel more European than British, which for me is very sad. Even though surprise surprise they will still be European.
I'm really not worried about staying in the single market or the customs union, but we cannot have those without Freedom of movement.
Put an end to ploughing millions and millions into the EU
One thing I never gave any thought to if I'm honest was the Irish border.
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| Just a little extra to the above I still don't believe we will actually leave, I will be amazed if we do, Ireland and I think Denmark before us voted in a referendum to leave the EU, however, at the last minute the EU came up with a better deal and they decided in a second referendum to remain.
Paul
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: POSTL "It's interesting that you say that in your opinion the way the referendum was framed gave leave a chance ?, even though I voted to leave I was so surprised and really proud I might add when we won the referendum.
'"
I feel like remain was clearly characterised, whereas Leave was more fuzzily defined. Leave voters were individually were clear on what they were voting for, but it varied person to person. That flexibility was a huge electoral asset, but it was slippery too (see also, Tony Blair’s electoral appeal). People on all sides do mostly want a deal, but those imagined deals vary substantially - the desire is there but it is for different things; EU vs UK, Leave vs Remain, and Leave vs Leave of different stripes.
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: POSTL "Just a little extra to the above I still don't believe we will actually leave, I will be amazed if we do, Ireland and I think Denmark before us voted in a referendum to leave the EU, however, at the last minute the EU came up with a better deal and they decided in a second referendum to remain.
Paul'"
They weren’t votes to leave or remain, but to ratify (or not) treaties. The Danes initially rejected Maastricht and the Irish initially rejected Lisbon.
I don’t think we’ll see any significant concessions based around May’s deal, and I can’t see a second in-out referendum without a big shift in public opinion. Nor should there be - if it had gone the other way i’d be outraged if Farage had got his second referendum.
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| Quote: Mild Rover "I feel like remain was clearly characterised, whereas Leave was more fuzzily defined. Leave voters were individually were clear on what they were voting for, but it varied person to person. That flexibility was a huge electoral asset, but it was slippery too (see also, Tony Blair’s electoral appeal). People on all sides do mostly want a deal, but those imagined deals vary substantially - the desire is there but it is for different things; EU vs UK, Leave vs Remain, and Leave vs Leave of different stripes.'"
I can't disagree with any of what you say to be fair, its because of what you say that when they say Brexiteers didn't vote for this, how do they know because the Leave vote was for so many different reasons. I thought at one time some politicians were asking for a 3 way referendum, with either except the deal, leave with no deal or remain, for me in effect splitting the leave vote.
Although I have heard different treason for remain, They see themselves as more European, so they can go on holiday, worried about the future, worried about their jobs especially if they work for a European wide company etc.
I would like to leave with a deal if possible
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| Quote: Mild Rover "They weren’t votes to leave or remain, but to ratify (or not) treaties. The Danes initially rejected Maastricht and the Irish initially rejected Lisbon.
I don’t think we’ll see any significant concessions based around May’s deal, and I can’t see a second in-out referendum without a big shift in public opinion. Nor should there be - if it had gone the other way i’d be outraged if Farage had got his second referendum.'"
Thank you for the clarification mate. I wondered why we hadn't been offered any concessions
I wouldn't want another referendum apart from the obvious, ive never been part of one before and found it very divisive. I wish they would stop trying to wrap it up differently by calling it a peoples vote.
Paul
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: POSTL "
Although I have heard different treason for remain, They see themselves as more European, so they can go on holiday, worried about the future, worried about their jobs especially if they work for a European wide company etc.
I would like to leave with a deal if possible'"
I agree votes for remain reflected different priorities, but I think there was much clearer consensus about the pros and cons and, more obviously, what would happen next.
Leave could be seen as a vote for greater national freedom, but I think people were able to best case what we would choose to do from their own POV and, because it was a broad/diverse coalition of interests, now those choices are upon us there is a tension.
For example, many workers saw a need to reduce the influx of cheap labour from Eastern Europe. In contrast, many Leave-supporting employers quite like having access to that cheap labour, and/or free access to EU markets but would like to be free of some EU regulations - such as protections for workers that they see as making their business less flexible.
Corbyn seems to see the EU as a potential brake on his more socialist vision for the UK. Someone like Raab sees Leaving as an opportunity to unleash a more red-blooded, deregulated form of market capitalism.
So, we’ll be a bit freer to choose, but those choices will disappoint a lot of people whose hopes have been raised.
Imo it was a vote for a single thing that is, versus a number things that could be, but mostly won’t be. Those targeted ads allowed the Leave campaign to not only focus on points that were of most importance to different groups, but to say contradictory things, because people didn’t see the messages targeted at other groups, which they might be much less keen on. It was brilliant in its way and was key to winning Brexit, but it creates a huge problem in delivering Brexit.
People want what they were promised. And it isn’t so much that Leave over promised - people know campaigns are a hard sell and to take claims with a pinch of salt. It’s that they promised different things.
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| Quote: Mild Rover "I agree votes for remain reflected different priorities, but I think there was much clearer consensus about the pros and cons and, more obviously, what would happen next.
Leave could be seen as a vote for greater national freedom, but I think people were able to best case what we would choose to do from their own POV and, because it was a broad/diverse coalition of interests, now those choices are upon us there is a tension.
For example, many workers saw a need to reduce the influx of cheap labour from Eastern Europe. In contrast, many Leave-supporting employers quite like having access to that cheap labour, and/or free access to EU markets but would like to be free of some EU regulations - such as protections for workers that they see as making their business less flexible.
Corbyn seems to see the EU as a potential brake on his more socialist vision for the UK. Someone like Raab sees Leaving as an opportunity to unleash a more red-blooded, deregulated form of market capitalism.
So, we’ll be a bit freer to choose, but those choices will disappoint a lot of people whose hopes have been raised.
Imo it was a vote for a single thing that is, versus a number things that could be, but mostly won’t be. Those targeted ads allowed the Leave campaign to not only focus on points that were of most importance to different groups, but to say contradictory things, because people didn’t see the messages targeted at other groups, which they might be much less keen on. It was brilliant in its way and was key to winning Brexit, but it creates a huge problem in delivering Brexit.
People want what they were promised. And it isn’t so much that Leave over promised - people know campaigns are a hard sell and to take claims with a pinch of salt. It’s that they promised different things.'"
Yeah I see your point on reasons to leave and to be fair mine was specifically none of the above which proves your point I suppose, my main reason was as I have stated freedom of movement, however, my reasons for this is; many of the people coming from Eastern European countries came for the same reason us northerners used to go to London we as they do think the street were paved with gold and in reality its just not, that's why imo they are queuing up on the French and Belgium borders to get over here. Nothing wrong with either country they just think it's better here. A guy on the news only last night was saying " in France he's on the streets in England he will get a house'. Which as we know its just not true its his perception. If we invite anybody into this country to work and live we have imo a duty of care to provide adequate health care, schooling and housing where ever they are from.
With regards to the influx of cheap Labour from Europe, I assume these hoteliers, farmers etc who mostly use this labour are being paid at least the minimum wage. If that's not the case then it should be stopped, nobody should be working for less that the agreed minimum wage. I am not sure why the government is saying only highly skilled people will be allowed in ?
Neither do i agree when May says she will try and get net immigration down to the 10s of thousands, what is the point in that if we need (say) 500,000 people to work in this country then, so be it but, we should also have the infrastructure investment eg homes, schools etc. Thats why i say i'm not against immigration just freedom of movement.
Lots of false claims were made during the referendum by both sides, the most glaring for me was the promise on the side of the big red bus that we all remember, of that 350 or 380 million or so we currently pay into the EU a year we get over 100 million of that back going to Farmers, fisheries etc, that must be honoured when we leave, policed yes, but honoured just the same.
When you say it was a vote for a single thing that is, versus a number things that could be, but mostly won't be. Im not sure about that as I don't know what people voted for, but what I do know is that it was stated by both sides during the election build up that we will be leaving the single market and the customs union because to be in either of those we would have to accept freedom of movement. So I really don't know how you can say most won't be with regards leaving the EU. One thing I can say, the single thing that was voted for by remain voters the majority of the country don't want. BUT I STILL DON"T THINK WE WILL LEAVE
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| Quote: POSTL "I STILL DON"T THINK WE WILL LEAVE
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28 |
759 |
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423 |
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Warrington |
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Wakefield |
26 |
1010 |
262 |
748 |
50 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Bradford |
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703 |
399 |
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376 |
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York |
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348 |
879 |
-531 |
4 |
Hunslet |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
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