FORUMS > The Sin Bin > Revolution |
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| Quote: kirkstaller "
It is true that children can come at any point. However, if you do not use contraception then you always know it is a possibility. If your religion forbids contraception, don't have sex. That, or find another way of satiating your desires.'"
The catholics have had that one sorted out for hundreds of years.
Its a tad unfortunate that its now illegal to use children in such a way but there you are.
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| Quote: SaintsFan "Except Kirkstaller's point was not about poverty but about choices. Children don't just happen. People choose to have them. If they have multiple children by multiple partners but expect the taxpayer to provide for all of them then while that protects the children, it excuses the adults from taking responsibility for their own choices. That has nothing to do with Victorian belief about poverty being equal to sinfulness.'"
So, because they've got unfortunate, uncaring or stupid parents, we should just pretend that the kids don't need our help then?
OK, I'm starting to get the hang of this Christianity lark.
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| Quote: SaintsFan "Except Kirkstaller's point was not about poverty but about choices. Children don't just happen. People choose to have them.'"
Most people do. Some people don't. Accidents happen.
Also, amongst people who choose to have children will be a number for whom the choice was perfectly sensible at the time and then their situation changed. Maybe a divorce, loss of a partner, or loss of a job. What do you suggest they do with their kids at this point? Put them into care?
And finally - no matter how feckless you might consider any given parent to be, the children are utterly blameless. Penalising them therefore seems to me to be a tad harsh.
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| I think some people are missing the point, if these people on housing benefit apart from pensioners, disabled or people with disabled children are upset about losing benefits because they have an extra bedroom why don't they do what the rest if us have to and work/study hard to get the job that can pay for their extra bedroomed house whether it be private rented, LA or owned.
Me and my fiancé have had to do it, the many years since leaving school/college/Uni of hard work, crap jobs and living on low wages and using contraception to get to the position where we are now to have a good/well paid job, nice house and ready to start a family.
Not everyone's life goes to plan and I know jobs are scarce so why doesn't the Govemment do something about the job situation first then implement this idea?
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| Quote: post "I think some people are missing the point, if these people on housing benefit apart from pensioners, disabled or people with disabled children are upset about losing benefits because they have an extra bedroom why don't they do what the rest if us have to and work/study hard to get the job that can pay for their extra bedroomed house whether it be private rented, LA or owned...'"
1) There are few one-bed properties. 1a) There are an awful lot of properties where a second (or third) bedroom is a bedroom in name only.
2) Once everyone has aspired their way into super-duper-paying jobs, whereby they can afford a mortgage on a £250,000 one-bed flat in somewhere as posh as downtown Hackney, who is going to do the low-paid jobs? And why should people doing low-paid jobs that society needs doing – cleaning is just one example – be on such grindingly low pay that they require benefits and then can be penalised for that?
Specific example: can John Lewis – a very successful British company – do without having anyone clean its stores, offices, depots etc? If not, why should it get away with paying its cleaners so little than many cannot live without recourse to in-work benefits, including housing benefit?
This is the perfect illustration of why we need social housing that is affordable. And by 'affordable', I don't mean ÂŁ125k for a one-bed flat to someone who qualifies as a 'key worker'.
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| Quote: post "
Me and my fiancé have had to do it, the many years since leaving school/college/Uni of hard work, crap jobs and living on low wages and using contraception to get to the position where we are now to have a good/well paid job, nice house and ready to start a family.
'"
Maybe this is exactly their plan, but to get there they have to claim housing benefit for a while?
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| Quote: Mintball "1) There are few one-bed properties. 1a) There are an awful lot of properties where a second (or third) bedroom is a bedroom in name only.
2) Once everyone has aspired their way into super-duper-paying jobs, whereby they can afford a mortgage on a £250,000 one-bed flat in somewhere as posh as downtown Hackney, who is going to do the low-paid jobs? And why should people doing low-paid jobs that society needs doing – cleaning is just one example – be on such grindingly low pay that they require benefits and then can be penalised for that?
Specific example
I assume you base your judgement on London where as I base mine on the North,
Example : my finances mother worked as a cleaner and brought up 4 children single handed in a 3 bed house which was ex council which she bought herself in the 70's/80's, one of her children was disabled (unable to move anything other than her eyes until the age of 15 when a wonder drug gave her full use and within days was walking and talking and to this day you wouldn't know that fact with the way she is), now her next door neighbour (in council house) is an early 20's single parent with 2 kids with numerous undesirables going round, if my finances mother can manage why can't tr said next door neighbour? If she managed with 4 girls (1 of them severely disabled) in a 3 bed house paid for by herself why can't the said neighbour with 2 same sex kids?
Same can be said about my mother, privately owned 3 bed home bringing up 4 kids single handed working 2 jobs to make ends meet and for what? She could have thrown the towel in and received a lot more in benefits but she didn't because she isn't bone idle.
I have sympathy for some but from my experiences in working in social housing many are either bone idle or playing the system to great effect, some houses were palaces and some you wouldn't let your dog stay there.
Now I have no qualms whatsoever about pensioners, disabled or people with disabled children etc living in 3 bedroom houses as the disabled speaks for itself and the pensioners have earned it and deserve to not be uprooted/moved or punished through taxation, for example ; my grandfather served in WW2 and then spent the rest of his life down the pit and living in social housing, he payed his tax and worked hard all his life, he shouldn't be taxed but in the first example I gave why should this 20 something girl who can't keep her hand on her ha penny and has never worked a day in her life have the same luxury of living in the same house as someone who has worked hard for it?
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| Quote: kirkstaller "
Behind nearly every story is a social failure. Sometimes it's the State's fault; more often than not it's the claimant's. The one thing which is certain is that 100% of the welfare bill is picked up by the taxpayer, who may have their own problems to deal with.'"
I was a tax payer, once. I paid something called National Insurance on my full time and two part time jobs that I worked 7 days a week. Now I'm a social failure, oh the shame
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| Quote: post "I assume you base your judgement on London where as I base mine on the North...'"
It wasn't 'judgement'. It was facts. Housing is a massive cost that at means that many people are going to struggle to get a roof over their heads.
Quote: post "Example
Blimey – that's a lot of people in your family circle who come from broken families – did your parents all 'choose' that? Was your finance's mother irresponsible to have four children?
Do you get that point?
Let's try more.
There is a shortage of jobs. This is a fact.
60% of benefits claimants are in work.
The 1The Spirit Level[/i).
The current situation is not good for society as a whole – regardless of what the divide-and-rule politicians and their friends in the media would have you believe.
On belief – do you look back to what your own relatives went though and think it was A Good Thing? Do you feel nostalgia for it? Or is it a bit like those mothers who take their girls for female genital mutilation because they'd been through it, so why shouldn't their daughters? Y'know.
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| I get no housing benefits at all and I just get 25% off my Poll Tax.
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| Quote: Mintball "
60% of benefits claimants are in work.
The 1
I just hope for your sake that Ian Duncan Smith doesn't read these forums because if he reads that he'll blow another fuse and dash to a Murdoch newspaper to absolutely deny your facts and replace the skivers and scroungers mantra back into the public domain.
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| Quote: JerryChicken "I just hope for your sake that Ian Duncan Smith doesn't read these forums because if he reads that he'll blow another fuse and dash to a Murdoch newspaper to absolutely deny your facts and replace the skivers and scroungers mantra back into the public domain.'"
The new NHS Party has been aiming them in his direction already.
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| Quote: Dead Man Walking "I get no housing benefits at all and I just get 25% off my Poll Tax.'"
If you mean you get a discount off your council tax because you are a single person, don't worry you will be next in line to have that "benefit" removed.
The same argument will apply to you. It will be if you don't want to pay the full council tax for a property of the band you live in, go and buy one in a lower band.
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| Quote: DaveO "If you mean you get a discount off your council tax because you are a single person, don't worry you will be next in line to have that "benefit" removed.
The same argument will apply to you. It will be if you don't want to pay the full council tax for a property of the band you live in, go and buy one in a lower band.'"
... or go and educate yourself or train to get one of the millions of better-paid jobs that are out there.
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| Quote: Dead Man Walking "Does anyone think that the people in this country would ever take part in one like the French and Russian Revolutions or are they too laid back and not bothered enough ?'"
Went to a SWP meeting last night. Apparently the revolution is imminent. Is that the same one that was imminent last time I went, 35 years ago, or a new one?
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