Aware of all that. Though in reality the system can be manipulated in various ways to extend into years. I can't find the article that demonstrated how but it's to do with time in the country, proof of job seeking, etc. And how many actually leave once the 6 months is up? No-one seems to know, which suggests it's not an efficient system.

Either way, none of the above gives us control over limiting the numbers allowed to enter the country and commence their residence in the first place. I've always said it's a numbers game (although other issues are also of concern). Whether the migrant is working or not is largely irrelevant, the reality is far too many people have arrived far too quickly. The fiscal impact is one thing, the social impact and demand on infrastructure and services is another.

In fact the main point I was actually making - and have made many times on here - was the EU's refusal to even consider negotiating. One of their biggest members and largest contributors expressed major concerns with the 'Pillar' of Freedom of Movement yet the EU thumbed their noses at us (one said we were acting like children) and repeatedly stated all the Pillars are non-negotiable.

Do I want to be a member of a blinkered movement that acts so arrogantly when a key member state and net contributor of billions a year raises concerns? No, do I feck.

So yes, perfectly happy with my reasons for voting leave and nothing to do with your idiotic final sentence Dave.

In the campaign we were given the spectre of being overrun by Turks and Eastern Europeans and that [uwe were powerless to do anything about it.[/u Your post read to me that you thought this also. You may have known better but this lie was a trump card played by Farage in the closing stages of the campaign.

That we may not have actively sought to deport those who overstay is a failure of the UK government, no one else. Just along the same lines as letting tourists or students overstay or for that matter any of the usual mess they make of things such as allowing fraudulent benefit claims or failing to collect taxes.

I think it would be a pretty stupid idea to stop collecting taxes or paying benefits because we are bad at policing the system and I think it is equally stupid to vote to leave the EU due to concerns over our inept policing of FoM. It's a drastic over-reaction. Before that moron Cameron raised the prospect of a vote the EU was so far down the list of concerns for most voters except the UKIP fanatics it was off the bottom of the page. And the kippers only got on a roll when Cameron gave 'em the ammunition by his equally stupid attempt at another renegotiation.

As to an intransigent EU, we were part of the EU that drew up the Single Market Rules and the four freedoms in the first place and a leading player in that. People talk of the EU as it it is a political entity in its own right. It's not. It he the body that implements the will of its members and then only on issues that affect the EU itself such as the workings of the single market. That vast majority of our laws, rules and regulations are set down by our own parliament.

We are actually going to lose sovereignty by leaving because whether we end up with a Norway type agreement or a Canada type agree we will be complying with EU rules with no say in those rules.

[url=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/19/europe-wake-up-drastic-financial-consequences-hard-brexit-netherlands-uk#commentsA Dutch view on Brexit[/url

Indeed.
Assuming that we wish to continue trading with the EU, post Brexit, all of the regulations that Farage and his cronies sneered at, will still need to be in place.
Of course, when we conquer the brave new world, allowing us to export like never before and import untold amounts of cheap produce, the EU will be a distant memory. Unfortunately,this is more fantasy thinking but, at least it give the Brexiteers something to hold on to.
It was interesting to hear Howard Davies, chairman of The Royal Bank of Scotland, concede that Britain will most likely be losing a slice of it's much coveted financial sector. with the French and Germans positively salivating at the thought.
It does look like we will be paying an extremely high price for "taking back control".

Absolutely. I mean, [url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-storyonly 13,000 have arrived from Eastern Europe[/url...oh wait.



I doubt Turkey will join the EU any time soon, especially with Erdogan in power. But as a secular state it was creeping towards membership - membership talks have been ongoing for years. You truly think we wouldn't see massive migration from Turkey if they did join?

Deary me, you lot would make the same mistakes over and over.




Yes it is. Partly because no-one in a position to do anything about understood there might be millions about to rock up, and never put systems in place, and any attempt to put controls in place was shouted down by the left and the EU. Any discussion of this is often shouted down today. Why people are so desperate for immigrants I don't know. Yes I do - because they blindly adhere to a certain ideology.


FoM is far from the only reason to leave. But while we're on the subject, FoM is a feckin moronic idea up there with signing Ryan Bailey, and should NEVER have been agreed. Oh it's a nice fluffy concept but it's causing massive issues for the countries of origin and destination - and the blinkered EU will never admit it. Paint some big red arrows over a map of Europe pointing from the East and several Med nations towards the UK, France, Scandinavia and the Germanic areas and you get a basic idea of all FoM has achieved. Immense pressure in some areas and a massive loss of working-age population from others. Stupid beyond belief.

Tell me, why are you so concerned with the rights of others to come here and plainly don't give two tosses about the rights of the British people, who are forced to deal with massive and rapid social change, huge pressure on housing and public services, low wages being driven down and other issues such as the import of Eastern European organised crime? Are you a typical UK-hating loony leftist? A Corbynite, no less?


Correct. In fact it's so good at implementing the will of its members it point blank rejected the will of one of its biggest members to consider renegotiating those pillars.

If it's so wonderfully democratic why won't it even consider change?


We shall see.

Either way, the EU has a history of failure and I see no reason to expect anything different in the future. From the Euro to food mountains to fishing quotas to the Balkans conflicts to today - the refugee/migration crisis will continue to grow this summer, most of Southern Europe will continue to decline, youth unemployment will remain a huge problem and the Germanics at the helm want to drag the whole lot into 'ever closer union'. And guess what, you can't remove any of those steering the ship. They will force their ideology home at any cost.

As I've said all along, the UK is in for a rollercoaster for a few years but when the dust settles things will carry on (with a few changes, granted) and in the long term we'll all be better off while the EU continues to battle its demons.

So it is that you don't like foreigners then.

If the UK leaves the EU and keaves properly and quickly (unlikely) the EU will cease to exist in its present form within 10 years. The fault lines are already showing - when Italy, France et al are called on to make up the budget deficit the popular uprisings will cause it to crumble.

If the UK leaves the EU and keaves properly and quickly (unlikely) the EU will cease to exist in its present form within 10 years. The fault lines are already showing - when Italy, France et al are called on to make up the budget deficit the popular uprisings will cause it to crumble.

Reading and comprehension clearly not your strong point, is it.

Shush now, let the grown ups talk.

If...and it's a huge IF...the EU sees the reality of the growing dissatisfaction within many member states (let's see if they accuse other members of 'acting like children'!), and the blindly stubborn Germanics at the helm have a miraculous change of heart and agree to reform some of the 'pillars' - then the UK could consider rejoining.

In the meantime we'll be in a stronger and better place within a decade at most. As a snapshot, the Economist published this article [url=https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21736178-harrogates-downward-migration-trend-few-years-ahead-britains-how-it-faringHarrogate offers a glimpse of life when migrants leave[/url and tried their best to angle it negatively.

Exactly what many of us predicted: rising wages, more job opportunities, lower unemployment, house and rental prices increasing at a more reasonable pace. Lower end wages have risen by 9%. Oh and look, businesses aren't going to the wall - they're adapting, some paying teenagers above minimum wage. Hopefully public services are less busy.

How terrible.

See this is the problem, people such as yourself make vaguely xenophobic statements and then get extremely defensive when someone questions them which means we can't ever have a realistic debate about this stuff.

Let's see what you actually wrote, you talked about the economic impact, social impact and demand on infrastructure cause by immigration. We can cross off the economic argument straight away because numerous studies have shown that EU migrants have a positive net economic contribution, you also said you don't care if they're working so I would guess that's not high on your list of priorities. Demand on infrastructure is a total non-argument because a larger population should in theory mean more workers in every sector, if that isn't happening it's a problem with the system rather than an issue of 'too many people'. And in fact the reality if you ever go to a hospital or doctors surgery is the immigrants are almost always the ones treating people rather than being treated. Without immigrantion the NHS would likely fall apart because our services are grossly underfunded and not enough is being done to train British healthcare workers. So yeah, we can scratch that argument too.

Then we have the 'social cost'. Which as far as I can tell is another way of saying that you don't like immigrants, and that's your only real argument here that doesn't fall down under the slightest bit of scrutiny. So yeah, based on this I conclude that you are a xenophobe who doesn't like immigrants, even if you don't want to admit it to yourself. If I'm misinterpreting your posts then please correct me.

I love how some people are still deluded enough to think that this is anything other than a show power grab by the extreme right and they think they personally will still be better off out of the EU. It's time to wake up, Brexit could be successful if done properly and with care, but we have the exact opposite of that happening right now and the worst offenders to democracy have become the self titled Brexit dreamteam

No, the problem is the left immediately make inflammatory comments such as 'you don't like foreigners'. Throw schoolyard insults, get them in return.

Oh and if you simply read this thread you will see a 'realistic' debate over many months. Wrong again.


No, you can't cross it off. Mass uncontrolled immigration in reality brings in massive numbers of low earners. Low wages are squeezed, housing stock is squeezed, infrastructure is squeezed. So yes the Treasury might see a few more sheckles but plenty of people feel the squeeze in many ways. That most immigrants work and pay tax is lovely, but there is far more at play than that. Too many people, too quickly.


Nope, you can't. The reason being infrastructure takes years, sometimes decades to plan and build. Net migration each year is insane at around 250,000 (around 50% of our total population growth). Are there more GPs, houses, hospital beds, school places, roads, etc immediately in place to account for this growth? No, there aren't. Once again: too many, too quickly.

A question I ask all Remainers is this: if you're a local council, how can you forecast how many school places, hospital beds, GPs, houses, etc you need and plan effectively for the future - if you have no frigging idea how many people are going to arrive? You can't.

Yes, the NHS would struggle if every immigrant left. But that's not going to happen. For a start, only around 12% of NHS staff are non-British and the majority of those are non-EU. That being said, if the NHS had planned and recruited effectively we would never have relied on overseas labour to any degree.

Over the last decade massive areas of our towns and cities have changed beyond recognition due to immigration. EU and non-EU. Of course the left don't care about the upheaval this brings - in fact anyone who makes any complaint is mechanically accused of xenophobia (oh, look at what you said). I still fail to understand why the left disregard the concerns of so many Britons and...oh yes I remember now, diversity is oh so wonderful and Jeremy Corbyn.



Honestly, at this stage only the most blinkered leftist loon still insists uncontrolled immigration is a good thing. Oh it's a nice cosy concept if movement of people is reasonably equal...but it's not. Eastern and Southern European (and many non-EU) immigrants are flooding to the UK, France, the Germanic regions and Scandinavia (in part due to the failure of the Euro). Opening the borders between such economically unequal countries was always a feckin stupid idea.

Sensible, controlled immigration is a wholly positive thing for any country. Unfortunately that's not what we have right now.

Does anyone actually believe that we will end up with the Brexit deal, thay May & Co seem to be dreaming about ?

Free trade with the EU
No hard border in Ireland
Bespoke customs union
Free to establish our own trade deals with the rest of the world

The Tories appear to be on the brink of civil war and Labour, god help us.

I'm beginning to wonder if Labour are deliberately playing the long game. If they come out now and oppose Brexit altogether, there'll be a backlash - but as it is now becoming abundantly clear that the 35 or so hardline Brexiteers in the Tory party are in fantasy land in terms of the 'deal' they keep banging on about, and as more and more information emerges showing that Brexit will damage the economy for years to come, one would imagine that all but the daft racists who voted Leave to get rid of Polish people, will see the folly of the whole thing. Some polls already suggest that a majority of people, given the opportunity, would vote Remain.

Maybe JC is letting it play out - the Tories are tearing themselves apart and Mrs May is enduring death by a thousand cuts; and public opinion is slowly shifting - there will be a sweet spot when it's not political suicide to block it - hopefully through a vote in parliament on the final deal.

In fairness, Labour are also split on the EU and Corbyn has been extremely shy about telling us what he thinks, cherry picking which aspects of "leave" that suit his agenda.
With such a fragile parliamentary majority, May has been walking a tightrope but, at some point she has to make it to he other side and this will inevitably cause her to fall both metaphorically and politically.
Every chance of another general election, right in the midst of EU negotiations.
It looked a mess at the outset and looks no clearer now and all of our futures rest with the "strong and stable" leadership of the country.

As for the shift in public opinion, I understood that there had been relatively little change, certainly no substantial movement in either direction. Mind you, the pollsters haven't been too hot over the past 5 years or so.

Quote ="wrencat1873"As for the shift in public opinion, I understood that there had been relatively little change, certainly no substantial movement in either direction. Mind you, the pollsters haven't been too hot over the past 5 years or so.'" Personal well-being in the UK: July 2016 to June 2017 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... tojune2017

Quote ="wrencat1873"As for the shift in public opinion, I understood that there had been relatively little change, certainly no substantial movement in either direction. Mind you, the pollsters haven't been too hot over the past 5 years or so.'" Personal well-being in the UK: July 2016 to June 2017 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... tojune2017

Whether it's deal or no deal the Tories will remain split. The idea that a referendum would "settle this issue once and for all" is proven to be complete baloney.

Split parties don't usually win elections. Labour is keeping quiet because they too are split but will end up picking up the pieces and a situation far worse than 2010 with public services in ruins, country even more in debt and operating at a trading handicap in comparison with our competitors.

I remain of the view that at this moment in time, there is no meaningful political gain in coming out as directly opposing Brexit; that would engender a massive campaign from the right wing MSM, and the resulting dog whistle reaction from those people who seem to agree that having any kind of political view that doesn't align with their own, makes them a 'traitor' or an 'enemy of the people.'

I'm relatively relaxed about Labour's position at the moment - the Tories are by any measure ballsing up the negotiations, and their leader is on a knife-edge in terms of any kind of longevity; if there's one thing the Tories do well, it's ruthlessly kill off a weak leader - as can be seen by JRM's sinister cabal of 35 or so MP's, who have formed a party within a party - they're not far off a leadership challenge with those kind of numbers, and with the Minister for the 18th Century the hot favourite to take over, I'm content that would make the Tories unelectable for a number of years to come.

I think there's plenty more to play out before the so-called transition period is over, and as has been pointed out many times by the man who drafted it, A50 can be revoked at any time. Meanwhile, Labour's take on the NHS, social care, privatisation, homelessness, inequality etc is gaining popular support - there might still be a chance to salvage something from this mess.

Interesting watching Stephen Fry on The Last Leg on Friday night. He summed it up pretty well - if you're a Conservative party leader, the enemy isn't sitting opposite you, they're sitting behind you.

If the ground would open up and swallow her, May would be more than relieved. My big question... Why is her hubby always hanging around like a bad smell?

Of course we're not going to get everything we would want in a perfect world. As I've said since the beginning - a deal will be reached that is reasonably good for all concerned. We'll probably see some trade tariffs but anything punitive would also damage the EU. This is precisely why the terms 'hard' and 'soft' Brexit are utterly meaningless: both sides simply want the best they can agree and the deal will be whatever it ends up being.

We're leaving the customs union - this has been made clear - the EU's stance has always been that any customs union means ceding to EU rules and that's what we're moving away from. There's a slim chance some bespoke union could be agreed but I think it's unlikely given the EU's dogged insistence on retaining power.

The only ones making a massive fuss of every single syllable uttered by every single Tory says are the press. People within every party have differing views, always have, always will. Look at Labour if you want true bitter division and confusion (Momentum anyone?) - I'm not even sure most Labour MPs know what line they're supposed to be following. Fact is, it doesn't really matter what Bojo or Hammond or anyone else says - Davis (and his team) and May are the voices that matter and despite the daily doom-mongering of the press, things are progressing.

For me the only true sticking point is the border with Eire and oil be fecked if I can figure out how they're gonna sort it. Some form of soft border is inevitable I suspect, but whether that's at the NI/Eire border, or the NI or even Eire sea/air borders I don't know. The rest will be thrashed out and agreed in due course.

I feel it's only right to reference this [url=https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21736178-harrogates-downward-migration-trend-few-years-ahead-britains-how-it-faringEconomist article[/url again for a possible snapshot of what we can look forward to. Rising wages, more job opportunities, lower unemployment, house and rental prices increasing at a more reasonable pace due to a less frantic demand, lower end wages up by 9% - even some teenagers being paid above minimum wage. Exactly the reverse of some of the big issues surrounding freedom of movement.

Quote ="Cronus" I feel it's only right to reference this [url=https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21736178-harrogates-downward-migration-trend-few-years-ahead-britains-how-it-faringEconomist article[/url again for a possible snapshot of what we can look forward to. Rising wages, more job opportunities, lower unemployment, house and rental prices increasing at a more reasonable pace due to a less frantic demand, lower end wages up by 9% - even some teenagers being paid above minimum wage. Exactly the reverse of some of the big issues surrounding freedom of movement.'" Talk of rising wages, post Brexit, is an extremely interesting thought, when pretty much all of the "models" indicated the exact opposite and more job opportunities is laughable. IF the economy is likely to be squeezed and again, most indicators seem to suggest this, exactly where are these opportunities come from ? As regards " some teenagers being paid above minimum wage", this already happens in certain sectors, it will have rock all to do with being out of the EU. Again, our ruling party have seemed to revel in austerity cuts, something which is embedded within their DNA and there will be no loosening of the purse strings just because we have left the EU. Wages will rise in a strong vibrant economy and despite our "record employment" numbers, our economy is not strong (or, stable) and will be less so, post Brexit. IIRC, even you suggested this would be a price worth paying to rid ourselves of the faceless EU bureaucrats. THe article is certainly an interesting snap shot of Northern life, a town where house prices are somewhat higher than other parts of Yorkshire and generally having a more aged population and I would suggest this is not representative of other Northern towns, never mind a fair representation of what may be coming our way. Feeling like mystic meg, the BBC have this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967 Harrogate may be loving their over 50's all white population and paying its few young people a relatively decent wage but, Harrogate isn't even representative of North Yorkshire, never mind the rest of the country.

Quote ="Cronus" I feel it's only right to reference this [url=https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21736178-harrogates-downward-migration-trend-few-years-ahead-britains-how-it-faringEconomist article[/url again for a possible snapshot of what we can look forward to. Rising wages, more job opportunities, lower unemployment, house and rental prices increasing at a more reasonable pace due to a less frantic demand, lower end wages up by 9% - even some teenagers being paid above minimum wage. Exactly the reverse of some of the big issues surrounding freedom of movement.'" Talk of rising wages, post Brexit, is an extremely interesting thought, when pretty much all of the "models" indicated the exact opposite and more job opportunities is laughable. IF the economy is likely to be squeezed and again, most indicators seem to suggest this, exactly where are these opportunities come from ? As regards " some teenagers being paid above minimum wage", this already happens in certain sectors, it will have rock all to do with being out of the EU. Again, our ruling party have seemed to revel in austerity cuts, something which is embedded within their DNA and there will be no loosening of the purse strings just because we have left the EU. Wages will rise in a strong vibrant economy and despite our "record employment" numbers, our economy is not strong (or, stable) and will be less so, post Brexit. IIRC, even you suggested this would be a price worth paying to rid ourselves of the faceless EU bureaucrats. THe article is certainly an interesting snap shot of Northern life, a town where house prices are somewhat higher than other parts of Yorkshire and generally having a more aged population and I would suggest this is not representative of other Northern towns, never mind a fair representation of what may be coming our way. Feeling like mystic meg, the BBC have this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967 Harrogate may be loving their over 50's all white population and paying its few young people a relatively decent wage but, Harrogate isn't even representative of North Yorkshire, never mind the rest of the country.

[url=https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/27/parts-of-uk-that-voted-for-brexit-may-be-hardest-hit-study-findsIt looks like those areas who voted for a new dawn will be getting their reward[/url

Indeed and with out "London centric" government, they are sure to balance any economic help into the areas most in need.
Maybe project fear had an element of truth in their speil ?

To repeat an earlier question... At what point will the riots start?