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Quote: Lord Elpers "

The Labour led 'Better Together' campaign has been a disaster'"


It has only been "Labour-led" because Camoron won't go anywhere near it, for fear of being blown out of the water.

His government proposed it and presented the legislation to enable the referendum.

If Scotland do vote YES to independence, Camoron is toast. Forget the Bedroom Tax or flogging off the NHS wholesale, he will always be remembered as the Prime Minister who lost Scotland and split apart the Union

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Quote: Ajw71 "

If by turn around you mean the rich have got richer while the poor have got poorer, where they have continued the sell off of state assets at bargain prices to prop up their economic plan, one that has seen them borrow more in the last 5 years than Labour did in 13, one that continues to see hundreds of thousands on short term/zero hours/part time contracts where employment rights continue to be errorded, that kind of turn around?

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Quote: Lord God Jose Mourinho "I haven't fallen for anything Salmond has said because I haven't listened. I think I posted last week asking whether it was full independence or they'd still be part of the UK. I paid so little attention to it I didn't know and I was actually surprised that it was a vote on an exit from the UK.

It just seems the English are really, really scared of Scotland voting for independence and I don't really get why. They are a small country of 5m people and a fraction of the UK economy. The way the English politicians say that Scotland can't survive by themselves as though they are a basket case, but if they were such a basket case then surely we'd be happy to see the back of them.

Not being in control of our borders is a nonsense scare tactic. Like we're suddenly going to become vulnerable because Scotland is independent. No one was planning on invading us before, they won't be planning on invading us afterwards.

The truth is that we probably wouldn't need to move any defence bases. We pay them a stupid rent of a few pounds/dollars/euros and they'd stay defended as they are and benefit from the spending of the troops. The businesses that leave Scotland and come back to England, this is supposed to be a bad thing for England? All scare tactic BS IMO. If Scotland was a viable place for business before it will still be viable afterwards.

If Scotland and England can't amicably split then it really shows what a bunch of utter cretins our politicians are when they have destablised countries throughout the world and created war zones. It's alright for Ukraine to push for independence with our half ar5ed backing and create the problems with Russia but if the people of Scotland vote for independence from us then we threaten to put up every block we can to it.

I think if Mexico was polled on becoming the 51st state of the USA they'd vote yes in a heartbeat. The US doesn't want them because they're too poor. If Canada was polled they'd vote no. On heath care alone they simply wouldn't accept becoming American. I think Scotland is a great deal closer to being our version of Canada than they are a Mexico.'"


You really aren't too bright are you?

If Scotland vote YES then there are a significant number of problems that would arise.

The first and major point (that Salmond continually ignores or dismisses) is money: All three major parties have stated that if there is a yes vote, Scotland will not be part of the (now) UK £. Of course you can be an independent nation and link your currency to another bigger, friendly economy but you would then be beholden to your big neighbour's interest rates and fiscal policies. Scotland could always go it alone but what sort of credit rating would they attract?

As for defence bases, the SNP have already stated quite clearly that Scotland would be a nuclear-free zone. Where do you suggest we park our submarines? As for defence ship-building: we have, since the end of WW2, made sure that all of our naval vessels are built within the UK. We do not contract strategic vessels to any foreign country. Independence would mean Scotland then becomes a foreign country, they'd lose that gig straight away.

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Quote: cod'ead "If Scotland vote YES then there are a significant number of problems that would arise.

The first and major point (that Salmond continually ignores or dismisses) is money

As I said, the three major parties may have said they won't let them keep the pound but that IMO is massively influenced by the fact that none of them want Scotland to leave the union. But it should be that Bank of England's decision as they have authority over monetary policy.

Salmond seems to think that the party leaders are bluffing and I'm inclined to agree.

Quote: cod'ead "As for defence bases, the SNP have already stated quite clearly that Scotland would be a nuclear-free zone. Where do you suggest we park our submarines? As for defence ship-building

All issues sorted through negotiation and don't need to be massive unless the parties choose them to be.

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I'm not particularly bothered which way the Scots vote, but it seems to me that requiring only a 51% majority is not enough for such a major decision. When a vote to split would be irreversible, would those wanting to see a split accept a 51% majority against them as a decision for all time?

BTW the Bank of England would have absolutley no remit regarding monetary union or other arrangements put in place. That's political territory - the BoE's only role would be in implementing whatever policy the government gives it. The BoE may argue that the chosen policy is wrong, but they could not enforce monetary union on the remainder of the UK. In fact 'monetary policy' in terms of the BoE itself is powerful but via a limited range of tools - basically interest rates and money supply.

Anyway, assuming a yes vote happens, it will be interesting to see what approach is taken with regards to practicalities. Would a 'snubbed' England play hardball over everything - causing far more problems for Scotland than itself? Or would England try to play nice?

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It's a crying shame that Scottish socialists are despairing of the ineffectiveness of the current Labour Party.
As a country that appears to hold social justice, as a core value in it's integral strategy, who can blame them after the erosion they have seen and had to endure from Westminster?

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Not fully up to speed with it all, but does it mean border patrols and new passports issued for those in Scotland and those Scots already living and working in the rest of the UK?.

On another issue my sister is friends with someone who works for a big oil company overseas, they said The SNP will have to tread very carefully towards them on all sorts of measures...whatever that meant?.

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Quote: duke street 10 "Not fully up to speed with it all, but does it mean border patrols and new passports issued for those in Scotland and those Scots already living and working in the rest of the UK?.
'"


Salmond has already stated categorically that he has no intention of setting up border controls as his vision is on a par with the sort of borders you see in Europe, a road sign and nothing else.

However Theresa May in playing the pantomime villain has stated that English border controls will be necessary if Scotland adopts a free border approach in the same way that you see when crossing from Holland into Germany, the theory goes that anyone could fly or sail into Scotland without any checks and then just drive across the border, not sure if thats what Salmond really means as so much of this crazy debate is based on the back of cig packet calculations, but if May is really intending to have a passport check on every border crossing between Scotland and England then good luck to her, I think she is under the impression that only the A1 and M6 go into Scotland.

Personally I hope she does because the very first time I get a call out to one of our Scottish clients I'll have a lot of fun getting back into England with an out of date passport, I'll even be a test case if they want.

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Quote: JerryChicken "Salmond has already stated categorically that he has no intention of setting up border controls as his vision is on a par with the sort of borders you see in Europe, a road sign and nothing else.

However Theresa May in playing the pantomime villain has stated that English border controls will be necessary if Scotland adopts a free border approach in the same way that you see when crossing from Holland into Germany, the theory goes that anyone could fly or sail into Scotland without any checks and then just drive across the border, not sure if thats what Salmond really means as so much of this crazy debate is based on the back of cig packet calculations, but if May is really intending to have a passport check on every border crossing between Scotland and England then good luck to her, I think she is under the impression that only the A1 and M6 go into Scotland.

Personally I hope she does because the very first time I get a call out to one of our Scottish clients I'll have a lot of fun getting back into England with an out of date passport, I'll even be a test case if they want.'"


Wouldn't it be more akin to the border between the UK and Rep of Ireland? There we have a common travel area but only once you're actually inside it - it's not really a case of 'sneaking in' and then roaming around wherever you like.

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Quote: cod'ead "It has only been "Labour-led" because Camoron won't go anywhere near it, for fear of being blown out of the water.

His government proposed it and presented the legislation to enable the referendum.

If Scotland do vote YES to independence, Camoron is toast. Forget the Bedroom Tax or flogging off the NHS wholesale, he will always be remembered as the Prime Minister who lost Scotland and split apart the Union'"


Indeed. But like it or not and independent Scotland would make Labour toast too!

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The Scottish people should stand proud & tall and take control of their own country. They were sold out by royalty centuries ago.

As long as there are no longer Scottish MP's sitting in Westminster following a Yes vote, there's nothing else for the English to really be concerned about.

Labour will be the big losers electorally. 40+ MP's off any total will be mitigated by the majority required to win decreasing, but the Tories lose nothing at all.

I think there will be a No vote myself. fear of the unknown & sweeteners late in the day will swing it..

The big win is the democratic process.

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Quote: bramleyrhino "Wouldn't it be more akin to the border between the UK and Rep of Ireland? There we have a common travel area but only once you're actually inside it - it's not really a case of 'sneaking in' and then roaming around wherever you like.'"


I think thats where May was getting her knickers in a a twist because of something that Salmond may have hinted at once, she seems to be under the impression that he doesn't want any controls at all for UK citizens in a true EU open border type scenario.

Given that we can't control our own home-grown terrorists I think she's panicked into thinking that Scotland will be an easy route for all of Europes terrorists too.

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Quote: Lord God Jose Mourinho "As I said, the three major parties may have said they won't let them keep the pound but that IMO is massively influenced by the fact that none of them want Scotland to leave the union. But it should be that Bank of England's decision as they have authority over monetary policy.

Salmond seems to think that the party leaders are bluffing and I'm inclined to agree.

All issues sorted through negotiation and don't need to be massive unless the parties choose them to be.'"


For someone who says he hasn't listened to Salmond you seem to be taken in by his false promises.

The Bank of England (BOE) is the bank of last resort and came to the rescue of HBOS and RBS (both Scottish banks) when they went bust to the tune of more than the whole Scottish GDP. If Scotland becomes an independent country the BOE cannot be the bank of last resort to a foreign country. If Scotland keeps the pound without the backing of the BOE then they will have a huge risk of requiring a bail out within a short period of time. The question is who will bail them out?

Salmond has gambled his whole economic policy on oil revenues which he fails to accept are declining. He has also hugely under calculated the costs of independence. eg his own embassies around the world, his own DVLA, his own funding of a higher public deficit than the rest of the UK, his own defense, his own BBC, his own civil service, funding Scottish pensions out of current income, etc etc etc

Of course it is possible for Scotland to become an independent country but the short and medium term costs are huge and he will need an austerity programme far far tougher than the rest of the UK to have any chance of making the books balance. Even the long term future is a massive gamble economically.

Salmond has made promises that he cannot keep

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Quote: Lord Elpers "For someone who says he hasn't listened to Salmond you seem to be taken in by his false promises.

The Bank of England (BOE) is the bank of last resort and came to the rescue of HBOS and RBS (both Scottish banks) when they went bust to the tune of more than the whole Scottish GDP. If Scotland becomes an independent country the BOE cannot be the bank of last resort to a foreign country. If Scotland keeps the pound without the backing of the BOE then they will have a huge risk of requiring a bail out within a short period of time. The question is who will bail them out?

Salmond has gambled his whole economic policy on oil revenues which he fails to accept are declining. He has also hugely under calculated the costs of independence. eg his own embassies around the world, his own DVLA, his own funding of a higher public deficit than the rest of the UK, his own defense, his own BBC, his own civil service, funding Scottish pensions out of current income, etc etc etc

Of course it is possible for Scotland to become an independent country but the short and medium term costs are huge and he will need an austerity programme far far tougher than the rest of the UK to have any chance of making the books balance. Even the long term future is a massive gamble economically.

Salmond has made promises that he cannot keep'"


I think you are rather over estimating what Salmond has actually said or promised. Scotland keeping the £ doesn't equate to a bail out in any way.

There would be nothing preventing the BBC operating as a commercial television station & collecting subscriptions in Scotland.

Embassies? Reciprocal agreements with any countries they want them in?

DVLA? That would be a huge money spinner for them. Civil Service requirements would be what, set against what they have now?

Croatia is a similar sized country population wise to Scotland. It has a shipbuilding industry the Scots have the capability for on the Clyde. It seems to be doing quite well following accession to the EU, which has pumped in some £18bn into the country.

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