FORUMS > The Sin Bin > The break up of the Union |
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: sally cinnamon "So how would the government justify signing up to a trade deal with the US that would place locks on a future UK government from bringing in new environmental, food safety or product standards, and forces us to get rid of the existing NICE system for recommending and purchasing drugs, so that we paid higher prices for US-produced medicines.
Similarly, in a trade deal with India where the Indians are insistent that we stop classing Indian citizens as high risk in terms of immigration, and relax the rules on visas from India.
The government wants to secure trade deals so will have to accept some compromises like this, and will have to sell that to an electorate who thought we were leaving Europe to regain freedom to make our own laws rather than see our own government sign them away in an external trade agreement.'"
Just to note that changing the system of NICE assessments and pricing negotiations, would impact on all medicines, not just those produced by US companies. All the big Pharma companies have global reach, so i’m not sure how sensible it is to think about them in terms of their nations of origin.
I’d be interested to see or hear what the US might want in this regard, because we have a mature and effective process tailored to our healthcare system. I just can’t see what fundamental changes would be feasible without dismantling the whole framework.
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| It will be interesting to see our actual influence with the USA with regards the extradition of the motorist charged with death by dangerous driving. I expect that sadly USA will take no notice and I doubt our actual commitment due to the trade deal Johnson needs.
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icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg |
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| Quote: wrencat1873 "Mr Johnson has indeed promised a Brexit Dividend on multiple occasions, no mention from his of any "economic hit"
Is he once again being economical with the truth or does he really expect an improvement in our prosperity ?'"
No he hasn't he has said there will be a financial boost from not having to give the EU £9bn every year and I suppose that can be seen as a good thing if it is invested in a tangible manner.
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icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg |
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| Quote: Scarlet Pimpernell "It will be interesting to see our actual influence with the USA with regards the extradition of the motorist charged with death by dangerous driving. I expect that sadly USA will take no notice and I doubt our actual commitment due to the trade deal Johnson needs.'"
Not a chance the US will extradite this lady, its not in their DNA - we need to ensure we are equally as resolute when the situation is reversed
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icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg |
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| Quote: Scarlet Pimpernell "The problem is the new agreement to leave removed the clause that allowed parliament to scrutinise any trade deals. This means it will be down to the inner circle including Dominic Cummings to arrange and sign before Parliament can even consider.
I have said before that suddenly IDS and Fox are pushing the US food standards. I note that Johnson had his food delivered by Harrods to the back door of course, no chlorinated chicken for him.
Brexit has split this country and I am afraid it has given a boost to racism and racists who relate it to the empire. I would hope Johnson would look to try to reduce this but I fear history would suggest he will not.'"
We have seen what happens when Parliament start reviewing deals mid deal - members act in their best interest not in the interest of the country as a whole. They have shot themselves in the foot.
On Chlorinated chicken - it is not as if we will be force fed this stuff.
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| Quote: Sal Paradise "On Chlorinated chicken - it is not as if we will be force fed this stuff.'"
There is also nothing wrong with it from a human point of view, the only possible concern is a potential (perceived) reduction in welfare, but unless someone only buys corn fed, free range eggs then worrying about the wefare of chickens is two faced. I assume those who have issue with it will also stop eating all meat (especially bacon), not drink milk, not wear leather, not wear wool etc.
Farming requires animals, simple fact. The whole Chlorinated Chicken thing is a red herring used by the left wing media to talk about a deal they haven't even seen. Oh, and you can forget about Honey because those bees are kept in the equivalent of captivity and the food for their young stolen from them.
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simpsons/simp006.gif :simpsons/simp006.gif |
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| Quote: Sal Paradise "No he hasn't he has said there will be a financial boost from not having to give the EU £9bn every year and I suppose that can be seen as a good thing if it is invested in a tangible manner.'"
Sorry Sal but, he has mentioned on many, many occasions about a "Brexit dividend" to provide a boost for the NHS.
It all started with the slogan on the red bus but, rather than admit that he was wrong/lying, he has indeed, continued to offer a "Brexit dividend".
A simple search on t'internet will provide you with plenty of links.
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50733_1530270912.jpg [color=#000000:ogl9gbum]"Back home we got a taxidermy man. He gonna have a heart attack when he see what I brung him."[/color:ogl9gbum]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_50733.jpg |
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| Quote: IR80 "I must have missed something, who is 'our Jake', do you mean Jacob Rees Mogg?'"
Yes. I'm just trying to normalise him, and make him sound like a man of the people.
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| Quote: Sal Paradise "Not a chance the US will extradite this lady, its not in their DNA - we need to ensure we are equally as resolute when the situation is reversed'"
Yes, the "Special Relationship" has always been one-sided.
The classic example was at the supposed height of the relationship when Reagan and Thatcher were the leaders, and Argentina invaded the Falklands.
Reagan declared the US neutral and said "it's difficult for us because we're friends with both countries".
That was Galtieri's military junta launching an illegal invasion of British sovereign territory where the citizens steadfastly did not want to be under Argentinian control. And America was 'neutral'.
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| Quote: King Street Cat "Yes. I'm just trying to normalise him, and make him sound like a man of the people.'"
I don't recall ever seeing him claiming to be one.?
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| Quote: Sal Paradise "We have seen what happens when Parliament start reviewing deals mid deal - members act in their best interest not in the interest of the country as a whole. They have shot themselves in the foot.
'"
Well surely thats the idea of having elected representatives from different areas of the country.
If there are aspects of a deal which could disproportionately affect areas in the north or midlands, where they have just elected Conservative MPs, why should those MPs not be able to scrutinise and use their own influence on the government to fight for their constituents?
In the EU all member states and the European Parliament will have the chance to scrutinise a deal with the UK, and in the US any deal with the UK would go before Congress, and you can be sure there will be some horsetrading to get certain members from certain states on board because of issues/industries that are important in their state. So why should the British regions not get the same representation?
If it isn't scrutinised then basically you are just putting your trust in the first deal that the civil servants in Whitehall come up with, and see it get rammed through Parliament unchallenged.
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simpsons/simp006.gif :simpsons/simp006.gif |
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| Quote: sally cinnamon "Yes, the "Special Relationship" has always been one-sided.
The classic example was at the supposed height of the relationship when Reagan and Thatcher were the leaders, and Argentina invaded the Falklands.
Reagan declared the US neutral and said "it's difficult for us because we're friends with both countries".
That was Galtieri's military junta launching an illegal invasion of British sovereign territory where the citizens steadfastly did not want to be under Argentinian control. And America was 'neutral'.'"
It's the type of relationship that you may have with a bully that is stealing your dinner money.
We do as we are told but, we can ask for help if anything happens that may jeopardise us being able to hand over our cash (assets)
One thing it isn't is equal in any form but, it can legitimately be described as "special" (unique).
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| Exactly, and it is nauseating to see how the likes of Fox, Raab, Farage and Johnson, who were happy to talk tough about Britain standing confident in its place in the world and not going cap in hand to Europe, act as lickers to Donald Trump and the US.
When it comes to negotiating with the EU, they tell us that we will be fine with no deal, and we can trade with the EU on WTO terms like the rest of the world does.
But when it comes to negotiating with the US and people are getting concerned about being forced to sign up to the Americans' terms for food standards, environmental standards, product safety and drug pricing, we will be told that 'we have to make compromises' in order to secure a trade deal. There will be no willingness to walk away from the US. Despite the fact that trade with the EU is far more important for us than trade with the US.
What could throw a real curve ball into Boris' plans though is the US Presidential election. If it's Trump or Biden, the US will just draft up a trade agreement and get us to sign it off. If its Warren or Sanders, they might want to offer a deal on drastically different terms, which some of the Conservatives might balk at. Although Boris might be chameleonic enough to be willing to go along with it.
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12389.gif :12389.gif |
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| Quote: sally cinnamon "Yes, the "Special Relationship" has always been one-sided.
The classic example was at the supposed height of the relationship when Reagan and Thatcher were the leaders, and Argentina invaded the Falklands.
Reagan declared the US neutral and said "it's difficult for us because we're friends with both countries".
That was Galtieri's military junta launching an illegal invasion of British sovereign territory where the citizens steadfastly did not want to be under Argentinian control. And America was 'neutral'.'"
Rubbish. Yes, the US declared themselves neutral initially to pursue a diplomatic solution. However they soon officially and publicly sided with the UK. US policy was at first skewed by Secretary of State Alexander Haig, who favoured an "Argentinian sovereignty by stealth" plan, although his true colours became clear when he told Congress the principle of self-determination did not apply to the Falklanders, followed by a joke about their sexual practices. Haig even threatened to leak British movements. This is the same man who suggested a "nuclear warning shot" in Europe might deter the USSR.
The USA had been receiving strong Argentinian support in training Contras. The Junta gambled this would negate the 'Special Relationship', but they got it wrong.
Reagan, publicly at first, stuck to his neutral stance re sovereignty over the islands but opposition to military action. However he soon gave his consent to strong material support to the British military campaign.
The US not only provided intel, but also repositioned a spy satellite from Soviet spying duties, burning valuable fuel, thus shortening the satellite's lifespan. They supplied 12.5 million gallons of aviation fuel diverted from US stockpiles, airfield matting, thousands of rounds of mortar shells and other equipment - including hundreds of Sidewinder missiles - many at 48 hours' notice, taken directly from US frontline defence forces at the height of the Cold War.
Ascension Island is a British territory, but the defunct airfield had been rebuilt by the US and was operated by the USAF at the time - but was handed over to the RAF, a vital staging point.
The US even offered to lend the UK the USS Iwo Jima if the UK lost a carrier. It was never needed. That alone is an enormous indication of the relationship between the 2 nations.
It's worth also considering that In the face of Soviet scrutiny it was important for the UK to appear to be able to win the war independently, hence the levels of assistance were not all immediately made public. A key NATO member needed to appear strong without direct US military assistance.
Reagan then made his loyalties clear when, 2 weeks after the end of the Falklands War, Haig complained to him about the 'cacophony of voices' speaking out on US foreign policy. Reagan replied with a note saying, "Dear Al, it is with the most profound regret that I accept your letter of resignation", and that was the end of Haig as SoS.
Arguments continue for both sides but the chances are we would have won with or without US assistance - we were well equipped and had excellent intel of our own.
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| ^ What nonsense
You mean the same british intel that let the argies walk in there unopposed in the first place?
Get real lol
The irony of the conflict however revolves around the history of the General Belgrano.
Initially the USS Phoenix which valiantly and heroically managed to escape from the snide Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbour.
The vessel being subsequently sold to the argies and renamed the General Belgrano.
However it’s luck ran out when it was shot in the back in a similar dishonourable snide attack.
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