We all know that voting against a strike if its called is difficult - the idea that its any way democratic is delusional - its like an election in Africa!!

I think your last statement is incorrect - we a distrustful relationship between employers and the representatives of employees who work to a set agenda in which the individual is lost. The guy/girl from the union wont lose their job if their intransigence leads to the employer taking a course of action that leads to loss of jobs. McClusky soon piped-down when Ratcliffe said enough is enough I don't need this I will close Grangemouth. To blame the employer all the time is unfair.

With the power recently given to the government to change employment law Unions are more important than ever, which sadly many will find when savings need to be made.

Tbf, when I was in a Union and was balloted on industrial action I didn’t feel remotely pressured in how I voted. It wasn’t like it was a show of hands in the car park.

It isn’t always the employers’ fault or even a case of there being fault at all. It’s about power, frankly - and collective bargaining, like in many walks of life, is more powerful. There’s a loss of fine individual control, maybe... but across a large organisation would management want to be negotiating with every individual every time there’s a need for consultation and change?

Work is becoming more transient, and labour relations will no doubt evolve to reflect that.

The company doesn't need to negotiate with every employee - they simply need to set guidelines/pay grades and then the managers adjust between the upper and lower limit to reflect performance - not difficult really.

The power in the private sector lies with the employer the opposite is the case in the public sector. Jim Ratcliffe showed the power of what private businesses can bring to the table - not so easy in the public sector - can you close down refuse collection. Collective bargaining is a very blunt tool and seldom delivers the best outcome because it doesn't allow for better performers who in that scenario are in with the rest - dumbs down - it cannot do otherwise i.e. lowest common denominator. Take SL what suits Leeds/Wigan/Saints is not the same as Wakefield/Salford etc so any deal has to be dumbed down.

Unions are an outdated concept and not fit for today's work in the private sector - yes in the public sector where progress is snail-pace a contributory factor is definitely the intransigence of the unions. Will they evolve - perhaps some fresh unions that don't carry the history/practises of the current crop of established unions?

A car dealer doesn’t ‘need’ to deal with the illogical, shameless, psychotic brilliance of my wife’s negotiation - they’d be perfectly capable of selling me my new automobile within a narrow internally-agreed range of the list price. Yet, for some strange reason, I take her along.

Power isn’t binary... it can be taken, or at very least mitigated. And it can shift.

Employers and employees have shared goals (a successful and profitable enterprise) but there’s a tension there about how the rewards should be divided and both sides try to rig the market, and sell it as a moral good. Sometimes it is, depending somewhat on your perspective.

I agree that unions have become less relevant. The younger generation are much more flexible and self-reliant, and rather less naively loyal than mine. They have a different set of values and tools, as every generation needs to.

Car dealers are interesting - I find them very easy to deal with I have a price I want to pay - I tell them at the start they either want to sell it at that price or they don't - saves so much time. If they don't somebody else will.

I disagree - power is binary either you have the upper hand or you don't - there is no middle ground. One party cannot be forced not matter what the threat if they don't want to go there.

We agree on the unions - outdated and incapable of adapting

As long as your alright then

I am the one taking all the risk, I put all the money in - its my family's house on the line - so yes its pretty important that the tail doesn't wag the dog.

If the union is so good at running businesses let them get on with it - we all know what the result would be if they applied their own demands to their own business - it wouldn't last two minutes but they don't and therein lies the crux of the matter.

40% of the union membership not 40% of the workforce - for a start. So if the union call their members out what happens to non-union members who do the same job, they are also expected to strike - difficult to cross picket lines as you well know - that is one of the reasons why it isn't democratic - but then an educated man like you knew that (sic)

As I understand it, non-Union members are not allowed to strike. For me personally, crossing a picket line was difficult, even though it was the less than militant UCU - just didn’t feel right. So, because I hadn’t got around to joining initially, I had to take a day of annual leave. Next time, I was on the picket line. That was kinda boring.

That's not what I meant
Your position on Power - You either have the upper hand or you don't - That's all well and good when you come from a position of power
Unfortunately the people with the power tend to hold the Power in 95% of their dealings day to day

Shoe on the other foot and it's a whole different Ball game

I have found Unions to be useless - I don't particularly care for them - However if anyone thinks that ALL employers would treat workers fairly and not exercise their power over the more vulnerable if they could to maximise profits is living in dream land.
Andy maybe that's where unions and the EU do serve a purpose however outdated and useless you want to portray them

I hear every day people slagging Police/Courts & Judges/EU etc.
But it's only in times of crisis that we understand/rely on them

I am trying to be optimistic in my thinking that this crisis will change peoples priorities, show compassion when required, Understand that not everyone has the same Priorities (i.e. Money) in life, that people will understand that there does need to be and there is a place in our country for a "Safety Net" in the form of properly funded Social care (Really good segment on Jon Oliver Monday about American Health care and the state they are in and how it needs to change when all this is over).
My gut feeling is we won't - The ones who want to care about themselves will carry on doing so under some other Banner to explain their actions & politics. Whilst the vulnerable will continue to be classed as Lazy, Communists, Lefties, hippies or any other Name by them to hide their prejudices & whilst there is some of those issues that blight that cause/stance - It's no more IMO and probably less than the amount of Privileged people out there exploiting others for their own Benefit/profits.

I get it that someone will rip my post to pieces - IR80 will tell me that I have "Politics of Envy" etc. and that's fine. Crack on.
I'm personally doing fine in my life, I hope everyone else is, and I wouldn't wish on anyone any issues financially or health wise, but if anyone does need them - Then I hope to good they appreciate what comfort that Social Care safety net is to Millions of less privileged people it is.

PS - Whilst not agreeing with a lot of what you say on various subjects I will admit that you do engage and provide your opinions largely in a healthy for debate kind of way.
However unfortunately there seem to be others that walk that line of almost revelling in other peoples issues and show no empathy towards others.
If that's what floats their boat fair enough - But luckily there are enough people who will fight the corner for others.

A good post - I have always found it useful to put myself in the other person's shoes - I always try to be fair whilst ensuring the firm continues for the good of all its employees. It would be great to pay everyone a minimum of £15 hour - sadly I would be out of business because my customers simply wouldn't pay because their customers wouldn't pay them. I am lucky I can choose who I want to do business with and I have a good enough reputation that if I lose a customer no matter how big I can keep trading.

The problem with the unions in my experience is they only see things one way and they don't think long term - their model is all about now - plus they are terrible negotiators and the average IQ of the management is so low it would be laughable if it weren't so tragic. Their life experience is also so narrow - similar to the majority of MPs - that they are incapable of any kind of lateral thought. They do their members no favours - it is no surprise Labour struggle when these people have such a big influence on the party.

Take Unite - they still have a final salary scheme for the top brass - paid for by members who lost that opportunity years ago - they are so out of touch.

As a union member during my working life ,i viewed it as an advantage especially with other fringe benefits that were on offer. There was always someone to speak up in disputes or disciplinary matters too .
I think the work packages agreed with unions though were good on the whole. Also ,being a HGV driver for 40 years ,i firmly believe that the EU working time directive & driver's hours directive made working practises worse .Drivers in particular were much better off safety wise under Domestic Rules.

I said "40% of those eligible to vote". Clearly if you're not a union member you dont get to vote in union ballots. It's a bit like the UK electorate not including all of the UK population.