What are you going on about, the government are responsible for PPE if they do not have enough then they are in error, if they have but are incapable of delivering them then they are failing in their duty to protect staff.
I will make it simple for you, we have to stay home to protect the NHS by not increasing the risk, if we fail then we are threatened with more draconian laws (this means more severe) however the government also have a responsibility to save the NHS staff which currently they appear not to be doing. The country is in the majority doing what we are asked the government is not, they should therefore sort their own house out before threatening the country.
Do you get it now or do you not care about the government’s growing failures which are being highlighted by many professionals.

I ask again, WHERE DOES THE PPE COME FROM?

(and whilst you are thinking of your answer, can I remind you this is a [size=200GLOBAL[/size pandemic, we can't just pop to the nearest ARCO and clear their stock of masks and breathing apparatus...)

and at the same time as you are pondering that, WHAT COULD THEY BE DOING THAT THEY AREN'T?

Well let’s see.
We know there were problems in the supply chain because 10 days ago they were showing a huge warehouse full of PPE.

Now not been a logistics expert but in the middle of a pandemic I would like to be thinking that the warehouse would have being about 10% full with the other 90% in the hospitals where it was needed.

Other ideas

What are they doing to get British manufacturers ( not many I know because city workers actually create Sweet FA). But the ones that do should be opened up to produce PPE. Cotton face masks for everyone should not be impossible.

We have school teachers in the NE using their school equipment to print and make their own face shields they are donating to hospitals.

In Italy two young men used their design skills to adapt scuba masks to work as PPE.

Did I miss the appeal for scuba masks, did I miss the government announcement that Berghaus , rydale, Barbour were now to make protective clothing ?

That’s what happens in a crisis. Leaders lead and plan

Well we were told large sporting events were fine. Delaying the closure of pubs/restaurants. Encouraging *regular* outside exercise. Non-essential workers still working if they can't work from home. Self-employed in limbo for weeks. Lying about testing capability. And that’s only the half of it.

Want me to go on?

As have we - but my business is front line care for vulnerable adults however, so I have no option but to send staff into the services they work in; and they're doing an amazing job - so far - of keeping things afloat. I currently have large numbers of support staff - mostly young people - voluntarily living in at the services they work at, so their colleagues can self-isolate and they are there to pick up every shift. It's inspiring stuff, but it will only take us so far. Meanwhile, care homes for older people are being decimated, with LA's and hospitals unable to assist and the residents being left to die in the home, infecting staff and other residents along the way.

What we do have however, is a massive shortage of PPE - we used up our rolling stock early doors, and the Govt helpline is sporadic at best; on Saturday I managed to get a job lot of protective suits from a builders merchant, and I have been assured that we'll have masks at every location by Weds this week. Meanwhile, one of our nurses has done a video showing staff how to disinfect face masks so they can be re-used - which is ok in a pinch, but far from ideal.

And no - of course I didn't by Covid-19 tests in advance; they didn't exist until recently, and are unavailable now to anyone apart from the NHS. I'd give my right arm for a couple of thousand of even antibody tests - that would at least allow us to know who has had it and is now safe to work, so that rotas can be managed more effectively.

So whatever platitudes someone wrote for the Queen to read out, it's certainly no help to us; and neither is clapping, or warm words from Govt ministers - we are doing this out of our own ingenuity and creativity, with no help at all from Matt Hancock, who appears to have entirely forgotten that his brief includes Social Care.

The testing would be a joke if it was not so serious. We are doing 14,000 tests per day compared to Germany who do 50,000. To end the home restrictions they will need to know who carries the virus or has had the virus. At the current rate we will have found a cure long before this is completed.
There is no excuse but they do insist on waffling in an attempt to cover up their failures.

Knowing who has/had the virus is of NO VALUE.

Yes it is because both will carry immunity

[url=https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24532754-600-can-you-catch-the-coronavirus-twice-we-dont-know-yet/You want to tell the scientists that....?[/url

The point is that without testing everyone who is suspected of having the virus, we will never know.
IF we were certain who had previously contracted the virus, we could then find out if it is possible to have it twice but, over here, nobody has a clue, not even the top medical staff.

One thing that should be happening is the testing of EVERY NHS member of staff who is returning to work after having "had the virus" but, we aren't doing this.
Doctors and nurses are rushing back to work after 7 days

You should tell the government because their initial plan was for herd immunity which they adopted delaying all other measures. It would appear all scientists have varying views and I have not come across many from outside the U.K. who are questioning the immunity question.

91 people in South Korea have tested positive for the virus after being cleared of it. So IR80 is right

Here’s the South Korea link I put up earlier about recovered patients testing positive again

[urlhttps://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/south-korea-reports-recovered-coronavirus-patients-testing-positive-again[/url

If this is the case then continued testing is imperative.

Boris Johnson’s government have been giving all sorts of mixed messages about this.

No he is not.

No one who has been re infected has died and reports are that although they may have been reinfected theY get it milder which has to be a good things.

Also no one knows if anyone has been re infected.

It could be dodgy tests , tests done too early before they were fully recovered , they may never have been clear just dormant.

Th Epping is that testing needs to be set up so when we have more science we can respond to it.

This is what I posted last week in response to IR80about what the government could do about PPE although he never replied.

Yesterday Matt Hancock announces that they were asking businesses to see if they could switch production to make PPE. It is shocking that common sense as seems to take all the big brains in government days longer to register with them.

This could and should have been done weeks ago.

Medical staff and others still do not have PPE. Yesterday Hancock blames medical staff for the shortage saying that

[u

Quote There's enough PPE to go around, but only if it's used in line with our guidance. We need everyone to treat PPE like the precious resource that it is," he said.'"

[/u


What is happening is that DOH guidance on PPE changes on WHETHER THEY HAVE ENOUGH PPE.

NOT Clinical need.

My sister is working frontline as a nurse with people with breathing difficulties.

They do not have enough PPE so one of the Drs started making their own facial screens.

My sister was wearing one when a senior manger come around and told her she could not wear it as it was not an something that met agreed standards .

My sister then asked if she could have one that met approved standards to be told, “ we don’t have any at the minute”.

My siste’r said that she would happily swap her heath Robinson design for a proper one withe next time the manager came down.

Her and her colleagues then walked off ignoring the manager to treat patients knowing that the manager would not follow .

ThIs is an absolute scandal that even now the government has no idea how to provide staff with the right equipment.

We have to ramp up testing - if only to see if it has a positive impact, we don't know whether it will or not.

There has to come a point where we just have to remove the lockdown and see what happens - again nobody knows.

This is one of the most densely populated countries in the world the impact of the virus will be magnified by the density of population surely?

Yes they do know - lots more people will die; and if our figures weren't bad enough, wait until the deaths at home and in care homes are included - it will probably double. Although the Govt is doing its level best to avoid the total figure being made public, because they know it will be horrific. Maybe they could get Priti Patel to announce it - I'm sure she could smirk her way through something suitably nonsensical, to deflect any criticism.

Apart from the USA, which seems to have badly failed it's population, especially in New York, the UK has amongst the highest deaths per capita of population in the world and as you rightly say, either deliberately or otherwise, it has massively undercooked the figures for those that have died with the virus.

It seems ludicrous that care home figures are not included but maybe the view from our ruling party is that "they would have died anyway".

We all looked on at Italy and thought that the virus was out of control and maybe it was but, for all of the flannel, lies and "following the science", the UK has come out at the top of the pile for deaths.
At some point, even the lying deceiving government will need to be held accountable - we know they will blame the "experts", who they have conveniently hidden behind from day one.
However, it is for government to decide policy, lead by its advisers and despite Boris nearly getting struck down, there should be no hiding from what has happened.

And then came the recession...………………………..

We know the vast majority of deaths c90% are coming from older people with underlying conditions - so surely these are the most vulnerable and should be kept in lockdown? Nobody is reporting total deaths why - because its easier and quicker to report those in hospital.

Surely this will ease your stress with many of your customers no longer requiring your service?

Wow - you are truly horrifying.

Let's hope your Mum or Nan isn't one of my 'customers,' who's death can be deemed acceptable because it makes my life easier.

Quote ="bren2k"Yes they do know - lots more people will die; and if our figures weren't bad enough, wait until the deaths at home and in care homes are included - it will probably double. Although the Govt is doing its level best to avoid the total figure being made public, because they know it will be horrific. Maybe they could get Priti Patel to announce it - I'm sure she could smirk her way through something suitably nonsensical, to deflect any criticism.'" The figures that are published each day are an underestimate, but I don't think this is a government cover up, it's to do with the different speeds at which information comes in to the bodies that report them - and also different reporting bodies between England/Wales, Scotland and NI. The daily figures that are announced come from hospitals and report the number of deaths where the patient tested positive for covid. People who died outside of hospitals or who died without having had access to a test aren't included. The ONS figures are a couple of weeks behind, but they include all deaths (including outside hospital) where the certifying doctor has put covid as a cause of death. But probably the most accurate guide, will be to look at the figures on total deaths from all causes, and assume that in the absence of covid the number of total deaths by week would have been the same as it would in previous years (ie you always get higher weekly deaths in the winter months when the flu season is on) and the excess deaths will have been related to covid (it will include things like people whose conditions were aggravated by anxiety etc not just having the virus itself). The ONS data here is a couple of weeks behind (up to week ending 3rd April) but you can see in Figure 1 here how the weekly death count was more or less in line with the 5 year average up till the end of week 12 of the year (week ending 20 Mar) and then it starts going up in week 13 (ending 27 Mar) and there's a large spike in week 14 (ending 3 Apr). In that week there were 6,082 excess deaths above the 5 year average for the equivalent week of the year. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 3april2020 Also reported here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52278825

Quote ="bren2k"Yes they do know - lots more people will die; and if our figures weren't bad enough, wait until the deaths at home and in care homes are included - it will probably double. Although the Govt is doing its level best to avoid the total figure being made public, because they know it will be horrific. Maybe they could get Priti Patel to announce it - I'm sure she could smirk her way through something suitably nonsensical, to deflect any criticism.'" The figures that are published each day are an underestimate, but I don't think this is a government cover up, it's to do with the different speeds at which information comes in to the bodies that report them - and also different reporting bodies between England/Wales, Scotland and NI. The daily figures that are announced come from hospitals and report the number of deaths where the patient tested positive for covid. People who died outside of hospitals or who died without having had access to a test aren't included. The ONS figures are a couple of weeks behind, but they include all deaths (including outside hospital) where the certifying doctor has put covid as a cause of death. But probably the most accurate guide, will be to look at the figures on total deaths from all causes, and assume that in the absence of covid the number of total deaths by week would have been the same as it would in previous years (ie you always get higher weekly deaths in the winter months when the flu season is on) and the excess deaths will have been related to covid (it will include things like people whose conditions were aggravated by anxiety etc not just having the virus itself). The ONS data here is a couple of weeks behind (up to week ending 3rd April) but you can see in Figure 1 here how the weekly death count was more or less in line with the 5 year average up till the end of week 12 of the year (week ending 20 Mar) and then it starts going up in week 13 (ending 27 Mar) and there's a large spike in week 14 (ending 3 Apr). In that week there were 6,082 excess deaths above the 5 year average for the equivalent week of the year. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 3april2020 Also reported here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52278825

Deaths per 100,000 of population as of yesterday:

- Spain: 38.00
- Belgium: 34.17
- Italy: 33.86
- France: 22.37
- United Kingdom: 17.07
- Netherlands: 16.44
- US: 7.19

...and the rest, bearing in mind the majority of the world are still in earlier stages of infection, and I think we can confidently ignore the numbers coming out of China, Iran and others. China especially.

You're not paying attention again. I note you ignored my replies to you in the PM thread - seems to me if anyone is ignoring facts and numbers, it's you. You've gone into boring rant mode.

The lag in social care reporting is not 'ludicrous' - it's been widely reported and openly discussed in almost every daily briefing. I assume you aren't watching these? Several times they've talked about how reporting of deaths away from hospitals is subject to a delay due to how & when GPs register deaths and how & when the ONS collate and report the data, which isn't as quick as a hospital reporting their daily deaths centrally. Yes of course it will inflate the figures, those of us following things closely understand this and therefore feel no need to rant or attribute it to conspiracy.

Within the numbers we then have the question over cause of death - dying with CV19 and dying of CV19 are two different things. And given the age and vulnerabilities of most of the fatalities, it's likely some would have died anyway. There are many question marks over the accuracy and different reporting criteria of the numbers globally.

Your post is just ridiculous. Full of unfounded maybes, accusations, assumptions and tinpot conspiracy. Even when you try to offer facts, you are wrong.

Don't be so touchy - one day you will accept the facts - perhaps if we isolate the vulnerable then the rest of us can carry on as normal - OBR suggests economic downturn of c35% wow - how many people will die post this virus from suicide, depression, domestic violence, addiction because either they can't work or have had their business taken from them - perhaps that's acceptable externality of this - not for me its not - perfectly healthy people being sacrificed - perhaps that is acceptable to you?

My parents are in their 80's both are fully accepting of their fate in their eyes they have had a great life and they cannot live forever.

Nobody posts more spiteful stuff than you - so get off your high moral horse - you more than anyone needs to look in the mirror.

Simplistic codswallop, but I expect you knew that already. You're just worried about GDP, really. Keep the illusion going that it's all about working to produce crap we don't need, so we can spend the money consuming crap we don't need.

The economy can be fixed. Who knows, our current broken form of capitalism may end up getting a good reboot. However, you can't bring people back from the dead.

It's nice that your so flippant with the lives of your own family. I'm sure they're chuffed to bits.
My own parents are past the 80 mark but, I dont think they're ready for the lid going on just yet.

You do seem to place a far lower value on life than the rest of us