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Quote: IR80 "Even more codswallop!'"


It's your own reply that is codswallop.
You appear so utterly brainwashed by the Tory press that you can no longer recognise fact from fiction.
Please explain which part of my post is codswallop.

Just because it isn't what you believe, doesn.t make it wrong. Btw, the Earth is not flat icon_eek.gif

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Quote: wrencat1873 "You are an extremely forgiving person.
Firstly, Boris and his friends in the ERG could have helped ensure that May's deal got through and then, having ensured that May had to go, he PROMISED, DO OR DIE, that we would be out at the end of October, in the full knowledge of how parliament was paralysed and now, he is trying to do EXACTLY the same as Mrs May and go for a quick land grab so that the can DICTATE his own laws.

100 years since the first remembrance service and our fractured country, along with parts of Europe is moving ever further to the right and it does seem that some people have indeed "forgotten" how dangerous the extremists actually are.

We have Trump in the states, looking after the "Whites" first and a racist xenophobic Prime Minister over here already walking uncomfortably with Trumps hand very firmly up his backside.

Already, we are leaving our kids in a position where they will be financially less well off than their parents and now we give them Trump and Johnson.
200+ Labour MPs didn't vote for May's deal that is the major reason it didn't go through - you can't absolve them - their red lines amounted to remain and everyone knew that it was disingenuous to suggest Labour were interested in any kind of leave.

May had a choice - her majority was only 17 so hardly huge - Johnson didn't have a majority at all so Parliament could function that manifested itself the Benn act which basically wrecked his negotiating position.

We look in China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, most of Africa etc where hard left policies don't really serve the freedom of the population and these are countries where Corbyn takes his influence. If you look at blood shed the likes of Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Castro have killed far more in the name of left wing dictatorships than anything undertaken by the far right.

Trump is interested in America first - he is antidote to Obama - who was a disaster as president possibly the worst in the last 100 years - American's hate Socialists.

What will make kids worse off is a Corbyn government - the scary bit is that him and McDonald and especially their sponsor Lansman just want to trial a government dominated economy its a game - there isn't an economy including China that doesn't give business the necessary room to breath that benefits its citizen's standard of living. Corbyn will kill business and he will raise taxes for ordinary citizens

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Quote: Sal Paradise "200+ Labour MPs didn't vote for May's deal that is the major reason it didn't go through - you can't absolve them - their red lines amounted to remain and everyone knew that it was disingenuous to suggest Labour were interested in any kind of leave.
'"
And again with the distortion of history.
It's
not
the
opposition's
job
to
vote
through
government
policy.

When will you Tories ever take any responsibility for anything? You had a majority, you negotiated a pretty hard, Tory-style Brexit. Too many of you voted against it to get it through. Your reason: "it's the opposition's fault". It's tedious and the sad thing is some voters actually believe it.

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Quote: King Street Cat "You dismiss everything everyone says. What do YOU think will happen?'"

I think we've established by now that thinking is not IR80's strong suit.

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Quote: The Ghost of '99 "And again with the distortion of history.
It's
not
the
opposition's
job
to
vote
through
government
policy.

When will you Tories ever take any responsibility for anything? You had a majority, you negotiated a pretty hard, Tory-style Brexit. Too many of you voted against it to get it through. Your reason

Yet the opposition campaigned on respecting the referendum - your absolution of the Labour party is simply getting repetitive and shows your blinkered view of the whole Brexit argument. Labour's red lines were so close to remain i.e. staying in the single market and the customs union and allowing the EU to determine our laws on workers rights and our laws on climate policy as well consumer rights whatever deal had been negotiated Labour would never have voted for it. You know it and so does the electorate.

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Quote: The Ghost of '99 "I think we've established by now that thinking is not IR80's strong suit.'"

Bile and insults are certainly top of your repotoire!

Anyway, I'm going for some chlorinated chicken whilst you go and warm up the next serving of codswallop between you and drownedpuss.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "Yet the opposition campaigned on respecting the referendum - your absolution of the Labour party is simply getting repetitive and shows your blinkered view of the whole Brexit argument. Labour's red lines were so close to remain i.e. staying in the single market and the customs union and allowing the EU to determine our laws on workers rights and our laws on climate policy as well consumer rights whatever deal had been negotiated Labour would never have voted for it. You know it and so does the electorate.'"
Brexit is a Tory project. How about your party takes some responsibility for the chaos it has caused rather than blaming everyone else all the time.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "200+ Labour MPs didn't vote for May's deal that is the major reason it didn't go through - you can't absolve them - their red lines amounted to remain and everyone knew that it was disingenuous to suggest Labour were interested in any kind of leave.'"


Sorry Sal but, whatever you may think, it is the fault of the Tory leadership and THEIR version of Brexit that has been at fault.
We've had this conversation so many times already but the only way to have "got Brexit done" would have been to gain cross party support immediately following the result of the referendum.
However, what e saw was Cameron stepping down and May most certainly trying to do things her own way, not even bothering to take account of anyone else's views and in those circumstances, why on earth should the opposition MP actually try and help ?
There should have been common ground sought and agreed upon and than taken forward on a "free vote".
Whatever happened to Canada + or a Norway + deal ?? and just what consideration was N. Ireland ever given.

The whole "we won" and "you lost" ethos, in a vote where of those who bothered to vote, the result was 48.1 vs 51.9%, as close to 50/50 as you were ever likely to get and yet, those who voted remain or didn't vote were utterly dismissed.

A clever leader would have carried the country with them post the result but, not here, and many peoples views have become ever further entrenched..

Bright politicians may have tried to find a unique type of customs union to solve the issue but, alas, this was never considered, despite the fact that this could have been "sold" to the majority of voters and although there may still have been a minority of unhappy people, this would have offered compromise to allow the UK to move forward and protected "the Union".

The ERG would have been unhappy and maybe the left of the Labour party but, the vast majority would have been ok.

Water under the bridge now and all of our futures look less prosperous by the day, which I just dont believe is what too many people wanted or why they voted "leave".

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Quote: Cronus " But he still had to work for his impressive academic achievements and to get where he is today.

You smack of envy, nothing more.'"

I never said he wasn't intelligent, well read and clever and i'm certainly not envious of a bloke who stabbed his predecessor in the back then dismantled his own working majority after lying to the queen and trying to 'RAM RAID" brexit through by "bending" the law.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "Sorry Sal but, whatever you may think, it is the fault of the Tory leadership and THEIR version of Brexit that has been at fault.
We've had this conversation so many times already but the only way to have "got Brexit done" would have been to gain cross party support immediately following the result of the referendum.
However, what e saw was Cameron stepping down and May most certainly trying to do things her own way, not even bothering to take account of anyone else's views and in those circumstances, why on earth should the opposition MP actually try and help ?
There should have been common ground sought and agreed upon and than taken forward on a "free vote".
Whatever happened to Canada + or a Norway + deal ?? and just what consideration was N. Ireland ever given.

The whole "we won" and "you lost" ethos, in a vote where of those who bothered to vote, the result was 48.1 vs 51.9%, as close to 50/50 as you were ever likely to get and yet, those who voted remain or didn't vote were utterly dismissed.

A clever leader would have carried the country with them post the result but, not here, and many peoples views have become ever further entrenched..

Bright politicians may have tried to find a unique type of customs union to solve the issue but, alas, this was never considered, despite the fact that this could have been "sold" to the majority of voters and although there may still have been a minority of unhappy people, this would have offered compromise to allow the UK to move forward and protected "the Union".

The ERG would have been unhappy and maybe the left of the Labour party but, the vast majority would have been ok.

Water under the bridge now and all of our futures look less prosperous by the day, which I just dont believe is what too many people wanted or why they voted "leave".'"


I agree with your point - the problem was even on day 1 a big chunk of MPs across the spectrum were saying the vote needed overturning. There was no way to gain cross party support for an exit when 70% of all MPs wanted to remain. It is like Labour now - how can they have any credible discussions with the EU when all they want is to remain?

Labour's view was so close to remain as being the in with no influence - that simply would wash with the electorate. May was a terrible negotiator and the fine detail was done by civil servants who again didn't want to leave - the deal had no chance. May had no majority it was a disaster waiting to happen and it did.

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Quote: The Ghost of '99 "Brexit is a Tory project. How about your party takes some responsibility for the chaos it has caused rather than blaming everyone else all the time.'"


Brexit only happened because a majority of those who voted in the referendum voted to leave. If the vote had been the other way round we would not be having all this.

The UK should have had a vote when the Maastricht treaty was first proposed - this was a watershed where the EU moved from a trading to a controlling organisation. Major couldn't because he knew he couldn't get it through - same goes for Blair when he wanted to get closer - polls showed a 27-28% in favour so Blair bottled it too.

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So, somebody please remind me once again, the advantages of brexit are:

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Quote: silver2 "So, somebody please remind me once again, the advantages of brexit are

[sizeTAKE BACK CONTROL!*[/size



[size*whatever the that means[/size

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Quote: silver2 "So, somebody please remind me once again, the advantages of brexit are

PARANOIA RELIEVER!

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Quote: silver2 "So, somebody please remind me once again, the advantages of brexit are

You need to take a long term view - what will the EU be in 10 years time - how has it evolved in the last 10 years? Is you view of what the future holds where you want to be - if it is great, if it isn't what do you do?

Decisions of this magnitude need to made for the long-term.

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SL
20:00
St.Helens-Warrington
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
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