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Quote: SamWire "
Quote: SamWire "You will find it is mostly to do with employment legislation such as the working time directive.
What EU employment law does is protect the majority of people in this country from unscrupulous employers and the Tories would love to repeal all of it so people end up with no job security or employment rights whatsoever.'"


then the trade union movement will rise from the ashes and children will once again descend from chimneys. the communist utopia so craved by crowe, mccluskey et al will finally be realised. vote 'out' comrades, it's the only way '"



So, are you saying that employment law is not necessary?
At least, I think that is what that rabid outburst was meant to convey.

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Quote: Cookridge_Rhino "I completely disagree that membership of the EU is a net drag on our economy. My point was that there is a huge disconnect between the opinions of the politicians (of all three major parties), and of the population. That is why there is a lot of posturing, and that is why I can't imagine the Europe issue getting solved anytime soon. All the parties feel like they need to offer a referendum in order to win votes, but they are all worried if they give the people a choice they will choose the 'wrong' option.

My point about the media was that like it or not, we are living in a country where most people decide how to vote on things like referenda, not based on an objective look at the facts and implications of their choice. But instead based on a quick glance at the options and which side has the catchiest slogan (slightly simplifying there but its not far from the truth).

I'm not a big fan of a lot of MP's, and there needs to be better systems in place to stop them basing their decisions on which will personally benefit themselves or their party. However I'd rather MP's make these sort of decisions than the public which on the whole is pretty unintelligent, very uneducated and is easily manipulated by a purely self-interested media.'"


I wouldn't let the vast majority of MP decide whether I should empty my cat's litter tray never mind something of this significance. The majority of MPs have little life experience outside of politics and if they were of a higher calibre they would not even be in politics.

Let's face what work experiences and specialised knowledge have any of the main party leaders got that put them in a better position to decide than the likes of Alan Sugar?

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Quote: El Barbudo "So, are you saying that employment law is not necessary?
At least, I think that is what that rabid outburst was meant to convey.'"

rabid outburst?
the only people who are having those think we're off back to the poorhouses/slavery if, heaven forbid, the tories give us a vote on something in 4 years. still, i'm sure there's plenty of people lining up to be the next tolpuddle martyrs.

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Quote: samwire "rabid outburst?
the only people who are having those think we're off back to the poorhouses/slavery if, heaven forbid, the tories give us a vote on something in 4 years. still, i'm sure there's plenty of people lining up to be the next tolpuddle martyrs.'"



Its like political tourettes.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "I wouldn't let the vast majority of MP decide whether I should empty my cat's litter tray never mind something of this significance. The majority of MPs have little life experience outside of politics and if they were of a higher calibre they would not even be in politics '"

That being the case, you're not actually in favour of parliamentary democracy.

As most people don't have a clue about the EU, and can't be @rsed to find out the facts, I don't see how a referendum would be much use except as a political stunt for Cameron to fob-off the UKIP tendency in his party.

Our entire constitution (monarchy, commons, lords, supreme court, etc, etc) has come about over centuries without any referenda, so why is this issue any different?

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Quote: El Barbudo "

As most people don't have a clue about the EU, and can't be @rsed to find out the facts, I don't see how a referendum would be much use except as a political stunt for Cameron to fob-off the UKIP tendency in his party.

'"


Personally, this is my main worry about this whole thing....We are putting, arguably, the most important decision in this country's future, in the hands of a huge amount of people who haven't the first clue about what they are expected to vote on.

Worryingly, for the vast majority, their decision will be hugely influenced by the likes of The Sun and The Mail - Its almost inevitable that this whole thing will turn into race/immigration issue, with the little Englanders being swayed with xenophobic rhetoric - I'm expecting plenty of anti-German, anti-French, anti-AnybodyButOurselves stuff from the majority of our popular media and I'm afraid it will become increasingly distasteful.

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This is nothing about Europe. It is about politics to win the next election.

It cuts the UKIP off at the knees.

It gives the Tories the chance to appeal to nationalism and to those who believe the cause of Britains woes are Europe.

It gives them clear water from the Lib Dems.

The Tories win the election and the Lib Dems are wiped out.

Cameron then negotiates with the EU who say no we will not let you be in our club but give you vetoes etc which give you economic advantages.

Cameron then goes to the country with a referendum saying i tried to negoatiate but got nowhere but we have to stay in Europe as it will be disastrous for the UK economy to leave ( he has already said he wants to negotiate powers back but that we should not withdraw from Europe).

All the major parties then say stay in Europe he either wins the vote or lose it and we withdraw from Europe.

Either way he is playing Russian Roulette with the British Economy. But as it is about winning elections who cares.

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What is wrong with giving the voters a say on such an important issue? After all the last time the British public voted to stay in or leave what was the EEC which was then just an economic trading club.

So much has changed since then. The EEC has become the EU with the accent more on politics and bureaucracy than trade. An undemocratic commission having such a say in legislation on issues that were previously made in our own parliament is a reasonable concern. The single currency which became the disaster many had forecast. To overhaul the inherent flaws in the Euro the EU leaders are demanding changes that will affect all 27 members and not just the 17 members who adopted the Euro.

The EU (EEC) is continually changing and so it is not unreasonable for the PM to seek to change some of the terms of our membership as indeed others are doing with regard to the single currency. The EU needs to change and give some urgent priority to solving its loss of competitiveness.

In commiting to a future referendum on this important issue it should open up some serious debate and bring forth the real facts as to the pluses and minuses so we are all better informed.

I suspect that the Labour party now will follow the Conservatives and include a referendum pledge in their manifesto.

The EU has been splendid for career politicians and bureaucrats. It has also been very good for large companies and multi-nationals who have the funds and legals teams to overcome the hurdles. (coincidentally these same politicians and large companies would have had us join the Euro so no suprise that they don't want a referendum)

But for the large number of SME's that form the backbone of the UK it has been not so good.

I have a feeling too that our bigger companies found EU trade easier than working at the emerging markets so became complacent. Which may be an answer to our dismal export performance to the BRIC market

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Quote: Durham Giant "This is nothing about Europe. It is about politics to win the next election.

It cuts the UKIP off at the knees.

It gives the Tories the chance to appeal to nationalism and to those who believe the cause of Britains woes are Europe.

It gives them clear water from the Lib Dems.

The Tories win the election and the Lib Dems are wiped out.

Cameron then negotiates with the EU who say no we will not let you be in our club but give you vetoes etc which give you economic advantages.

Cameron then goes to the country with a referendum saying i tried to negoatiate but got nowhere but we have to stay in Europe as it will be disastrous for the UK economy to leave ( he has already said he wants to negotiate powers back but that we should not withdraw from Europe).

All the major parties then say stay in Europe he either wins the vote or lose it and we withdraw from Europe.

Either way he is playing Russian Roulette with the British Economy. But as it is about winning elections who cares.'"


Well firstly of course it is about politics. This is a political issue.

You seem to be critical of a PM for being aware of the public's concern regarding the EU.

Are you against the PM trying to return some of the lost powers to our parliament?

If you read his speech he is obviously commited to remaining in the EU. But he is not shirking the very difficult job of trying to renegotiate lost powers. This may or may not be successful. But come the next election the public will know if he was successful and if he or the EU were being unreasonable and they can vote accordingley.

If he were to win the next election my guess is that all three main parties will campaign to stay in and the public will also then vote also to stay in.

Another senario is that this stategy brings out the real facts regarding our membership and it may show that leaving the EU is not the disaster that the Europhiles keep predicting.

eg Our huge trade deficit with the EU together with the cost of membership produces an unconvincing argument for staying in. (46bn GBP deficit with EU in 2011 ...17.1bn surplus with rest of world)

Indeed there could well be further trouble for the Euro before the election with more costly bailouts required.

My own view is to try and win back some powers that give some benefit to our trade but I am at present open minded as to staying in or leaving. I would like to see the full facts.

However my guess is that the real economic plus or minus to our membership is very small (UK exports to the EU are equivalent to less than 8.7% of UK GDP much less than the rest of the world (10%)) and talk of an economic disaster if we leave are just scare stories. Under Article 50, the EU is legally required to negotiate "free and fair trade" with non-EU countries, so we would continue to have access to the EU markets, just like other countries. The EU would not want a trade war with the UK, if we were outside the single market as they have much more to lose than we.

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Quote: samwire "if only there was some way of protesting against this to make sure the 'privileged few' don't get their own way. what we need is every 4/5 years a, oh what shall we call it, an election or something where the oppressed masses can finally free themselves of the shackles that hold them. a chance for every adult to decide the fate of the country. i know, it's a crazy idea, but we have to dream.'"


So why propose a referendum?

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Quote: El Barbudo "That being the case, you're not actually in favour of parliamentary democracy.

As most people don't have a clue about the EU, and can't be @rsed to find out the facts, I don't see how a referendum would be much use except as a political stunt for Cameron to fob-off the UKIP tendency in his party.

Our entire constitution (monarchy, commons, lords, supreme court, etc, etc) has come about over centuries without any referenda, so why is this issue any different?'"


Maybe I was mistaken but did we not have a referendum re the EEC before?

What are we going to have about independence in Scotland?

I would suggest some issues are bigger than letting a skewed parliament make up decide.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "What are we going to have about independence in Scotland?'"


You are not going to have anything icon_lol.gif

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Quote: Lord Elpers " ... Our huge trade deficit with the EU together with the cost of membership produces an unconvincing argument for staying in. (46bn GBP deficit with EU in 2011 ...17.1bn surplus with rest of world)
...'"

Ignoring your erroneous stats, you are saying that because we have a trade deficit we should cut off (or, at the very least, create massive tariff problems with and hugely reduce trade with) our largest customer?
You have also ignored the fact that the UK has run a balance of trade deficit in goods for decades now ... should we therefore withdraw from the world as well as the EU? Of course not.

Quote: Lord Elpers " ... My own view is to try and win back some powers that give some benefit to our trade but I am at present open minded as to staying in or leaving. I would like to see the full facts. '"

We need the EU to address the regulation of trade in services ... as it did so successfully with the regulations around trade in goods.
This is vital for the UK, otherwise we will see Frankfurt becoming the first-choice supplier of financial and other services for the Eurozone, taking business from the City of London.
If the UK is not at the heart of that transformation, the UK will be much worse-off over time.

CAP needs to be addressed, yet again,
Also, there may be areas of EU law where subsidiarity needs to be considered instead (see the other thread about federalism and subsidiarity).
But these are ongoing business, none are reasons for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Most of the facts are out there, freely available, no-one is stopping you finding them.
Mind you, I haven't noticed your confessed lack of factual knowledge stopping you from having a vociferous opinion.

Quote: Lord Elpers " ... However my guess is that the real economic plus or minus to our membership is very small (UK exports to the EU are equivalent to less than 8.7% of UK GDP much less than the rest of the world (10%)) and talk of an economic disaster if we leave are just scare stories. Under Article 50, the EU is legally required to negotiate "free and fair trade" with non-EU countries, so we would continue to have access to the EU markets, just like other countries. The EU would not want a trade war with the UK, if we were outside the single market as they have much more to lose than we.'"

The EU (the world's largest economy) negotiates with nations and trade areas and has vastly far more clout with them than the UK alone could have.
The UKs trade with the rest of the world will be significantly affected by this, whether we like it or not, and whether we remain in or opt-out of the EU, simply as a result of the EUs power.
You have taken a very simplistic view of trade in goods, for example ignoring the tariffs that would be imposed upon the UK's goods exports into the EU.
You have also ignored the massive impact on the UKs trade in financial and other services that would (not "could" but "would" occure) if the UK was outside the EU.
You state that the EU has more to lose than we have ... this is a skewed view ... we would risk nearly half our exports (e.g. we are nowadays net exporters of cars ... where are the jobs going to come from to replace that trade?), whereas the loss to the EU would be borne collectively by 26 states with no individual state having to bear more than a fraction of the impact that we would suffer.
The repercussions would take many, many decades to overcome, if indeed they ever could be.
Not only that, but we must not ignore the enormous elephant in the room ... i.e. the huge loss of geopolitical clout that the UK would sustain if it left the EU ... just as an example, the UN security council is already starting to shift inexorably to the BRICs and, if we are not in the EU (which can retain influence there), we will be reduced to the level of a puppet state dancing on US strings.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "Maybe I was mistaken but did we not have a referendum re the EEC before? '"

We did, that one was a political trick, as is this one.
But as you sound to be in favour, can you say why we need another?
Shall we have one every time a constitutional change occurs?
e.g. Should we have had one in 2009 when the House of Lords ceased to be the highest court in the land?

Quote: Sal Paradise "What are we going to have about independence in Scotland?'"

My vote would be for a federal UK (see the Federalism vs Subsidiarity thread, esp. the bit about The West Lothian Question)

Quote: Sal Paradise "I would suggest some issues are bigger than letting a skewed parliament make up decide.'"

Judging by the comments I see and hear from the general public, those issues are not generally understood.

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Quote: cod'ead "So why propose a referendum?'"


why not? if this is such a big deal which will mean the collapse of ukplc (i'm sure their was similar nonsense spouted by the tories when the spectre of the minimum wage raised it's head), plunging untold millions into despair while still lining the pockets of the 'privileged few', then surely asking us what we want is the least they can do.
every 4/5 years we allow members of society who are 1 step away from needing to be watered every day put a little x in a box to elect some shyster who thinks the public should pay for her husband to watch porn or have his moat cleaned. so, why not have a referendum and let the people speak?

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RLFANS Match Centre
 Thu 13th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R1
20:00
Wigan
v
Leigh
 Fri 14th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R1
20:00
Hull KR
v
Castleford
20:00
Catalans
v
Hull FC
 Sat 15th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R1
15:00
Leeds
v
Wakefield
17:30
St.Helens
v
Salford
 Sun 16th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R1
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Warrington
 Thu 20th Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
20:00
Wakefield
v
Hull KR
 Fri 21st Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
20:00
Warrington
v
Catalans
20:00
Hull FC
v
Wigan
 Sat 22nd Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
15:00
Salford
v
Leeds
20:00
Castleford
v
St.Helens
 Sun 23rd Feb 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R2
14:30
Leigh
v
Huddersfield
 Thu 6th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R3
20:00
Hull FC
v
Leigh
 Fri 7th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R3
20:00
Castleford
v
Salford
20:00
St.Helens
v
Hull KR
 Sat 8th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R3
17:30
Catalans
v
Leeds
 Sun 9th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R3
17:30
Warrington
v
Wakefield
17:30
Wigan
v
Huddersfield
 Thu 20th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R4
20:00
Salford
v
Huddersfield
 Fri 21st Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R4
20:00
St.Helens
v
Warrington
20:00
Wakefield
v
Hull FC
 Sat 22nd Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R4
15:00
Castleford
v
Catalans
17:30
Leeds
v
Wigan
 Sun 23rd Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R4
15:00
Hull KR
v
Leigh
 Thu 27th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R5
20:00
Castleford
v
Hull FC
 Fri 28th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R5
20:00
Leigh
v
Wakefield
20:00
Warrington
v
Leeds
 Sat 29th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R5
14:30
Wigan
v
Salford
17:30
Catalans
v
St.Helens
 Sun 30th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R5
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Hull KR
 Thu 10th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R6
20:00
Salford
v
Leeds
 Fri 11th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R6
20:00
Hull KR
v
Wigan
20:00
St.Helens
v
Wakefield
 Sat 12th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R6
17:30
Warrington
v
Hull FC
20:00
Castleford
v
Leigh
 Sun 13th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R6
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Catalans
 Thu 17th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R7
20:00
Wakefield
v
Castleford
 Fri 18th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R7
20:00
Hull FC
v
Hull KR
20:00
Wigan
v
St.Helens
20:00
Leeds
v
Huddersfield
 Sat 19th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R7
20:00
Leigh
v
Warrington
20:00
Catalans
v
Salford
 Thu 24th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R8
20:00
Warrington
v
St.Helens
20:00
Leeds
v
Hull KR
 Fri 25th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R8
20:00
Salford
v
Leigh
 Sat 26th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R8
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Castleford
17:30
Catalans
v
Wakefield
 Sun 27th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R8
15:00
Hull FC
v
Wigan
 Sat 3rd May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R9
15:00
Leigh
v
Catalans
17:15
Hull KR
v
Salford
19:30
St.Helens
v
Leeds
 Sun 4th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R9
13:00
Huddersfield
v
Hull FC
15:15
Wigan
v
Warrington
17:30
Castleford
v
Wakefield
 Thu 15th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R10
20:00
St.Helens
v
Catalans
 Fri 16th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R10
20:00
Leeds
v
Hull FC
20:00
Wigan
v
Leigh
 Sat 17th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R10
15:00
Hull KR
v
Huddersfield
 Sun 18th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R10
15:00
Wakefield
v
Warrington
17:30
Castleford
v
Salford
 Thu 22nd May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
20:00
Leigh
v
Hull FC
 Fri 23rd May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
20:00
Huddersfield
v
St.Helens
20:00
Warrington
v
Hull KR
 Sat 24th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
14:30
Castleford
v
Leeds
17:30
Catalans
v
Wigan
 Sun 25th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
15:00
Wakefield
v
Salford
 Thu 29th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
20:00
Huddersfield
v
Leigh
 Fri 30th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
20:00
Hull KR
v
St.Helens
20:00
Salford
v
Wigan
 Sat 31st May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
14:30
Leeds
v
Wakefield
17:30
Catalans
v
Hull FC
 Sun 1st Jun 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
15:00
Warrington
v
Castleford
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds-Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield-Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Hull KR
Sat 8th Mar
SL
17:30
Catalans-Leeds
Sun 9th Mar
SL
17:30
Warrington-Wakefield
SL
17:30
Wigan-Huddersfield
Thu 20th Mar
SL
20:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Fri 21st Mar
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Warrington
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
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