These people you talk about all voted leave and their Facebook profile picture is of them, with “free Tommy” written underneath it

Ya back.

Because fall all its ills capitalism is still the best system yet divised to stimulate innovation and reward risk taking. The idea that the state owns everything and doles out pocket money to its populus doesn't appeal to me.

Socialism is great in theory it doesn't work in practise and the only people who truly prosper are those at the top that live like kings with greater access to the better things and it is in their interest to keep the population under control to protect their priviliged status.

You should have just given up there and then.

I don't think you have to choose either one or the other. I prefer a more moderate interpretation that sits somewhere in the middle and reins in the excesses of either system is best.

Agree a mixed economy works best - you are voting for the degree of control the government has - if you vote Corbyn the government will control more of the economy if you vote Tory less so I prefer the concept of the latter.

Problem with the left as I see it and I may be wrong - most are from well to do backgrounds Corbyn attended prep/grammar school something they would happily deny anyone else the opportunity to access. Abbott/Harman sent their kids to private school but thinks comprensive education is the way forward, David Lammy is another, Umunna anothrt etc.?

Therein lies the issue with the left - its about the elite left having access to things they would readily deny others. You cannot deny the human spirit's desire to better itself through hardwork/risk/innovation.

Capitalism in its pure form results in a very small number of people owning virtually everything. Take the USA the capitalist champions, the richest 3 people in the USA own more than the poorest 130,000,000. I struggle to see how anyone can support or justify that system.

The state owning everything and giving out pocket money is communism not socialism.

You say socialism doesn’t work in practice, but the NHS is socialism in practice. So is free education and childcare, the police force, the fire brigade, the army. Why shouldn’t other public services such as the railways and other transport, utilities like water, electricity and gas be run in the same way as those organisations, to provide a service for the people, rather than to make profit for the few.

I think the degree of control the government has is exactly the point. Too much and you can stifle creativity and risk taking. Too little and you have too much risk taking leading to financial crises and people left in poverty.

The current choice seems to me to be between two parties that are light years apart from each other. I’m not sure either has the right idea. I’d argue the Conservatives have gone too far now with privatisation of some services and utilities being of no benefit except to a small monied elite that also happen to be Conservative party doners. Meanwhile I think Labour are being too ambitious with some of their plans and risk making a mess of any opportunity they might get by trying to do too much at too big a cost. In both cases I’d say dogma has got the better of them.

About right there , will sort itself out when we see a new realistic centre left leader of the labour party , Chuka Ummuna for me

Can't see that happening unless Labour party membership starts to be made up of centre-ists. At the moment the membership is more Corbynistas. Unlike in the past the membership has a greater say than ever before.

Are you calling the Labour Party out for hypocrisy? For actually being right s while masquerading as do-gooders? That, I can see that... to a point.

Or are you suggesting that Tories want to reward hard work? Or just that they’re more open about being s? Because they don’t make much of an effort to hide it?

At best they might have some patronising affection for those ‘ordinary’ people who know how to tug the forelock appropriately, but basically they despise the general public. Powerful tories work (well, probably direct somebody else to work) to maintain the privileges of the privileged, stamping on any efforts at economic betterment from the rest of society where necessary - or just for s and giggles, in the case of somebody like Boris Johnson. They’ll tell you class war is outdated, but they never disarmed - that’s their lie, but it’s obvious enough that it’s arguably not even dishonest.

Anyhoo, the UK’s still entrenched class system and it’s bloated and poorly incentivised financial system are two local issues, we could look to fix. If we were rich and powerful, in which case we’d be much less motivated to do so, having likely been ruined by our power and wealth.

Then we will be waiting a long time to see a Labour Govt

Why do you say that?

Labour and the Tories are neck and neck in the polls at around 40% each. Historically 40% would win you an election, but with Lib Dem and UKIP vote share completely collapsed, obviously they can’t both win.

When you factor in the Welsh and Scottish parties would back Labour over the tories, that should get them over the line.

An election next year is extremely likely, just look at the odds on offer at the bookies, it’s about evens.

I’m a turkey but I vote for Christmas, off.