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Quote: post "Two great books absolutely turned me off socialism, I’m sure you’ve read them yourself but 1984 and Animal Farm. If they don’t scare you away from the left and the way in which they are steering us then I don’t know what will.'"

They are George Orwell books, he was a democratic socialist but opposed totalitarianism. The NHS is an example of socialism in action, do you oppose that?

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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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Quote: post "Two great books absolutely turned me off socialism, I’m sure you’ve read them yourself but 1984 and Animal Farm. If they don’t scare you away from the left and the way in which they are steering us then I don’t know what will.'"


They are very fine books. Obviously though, not many on the left are advocating Stalinism, and I don't think resisting or trying to reverse the growth in inequality inevitably leads to it. 1984, I read more as being about totalitarianism generally, it was more of a fascistic dystopia in many ways.

The arguments put forward by Orwell in The Road to Wigan Pier are broadly of the left.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "Oh, come on, the whole Brexit remit was to reduce immigration and control our own borders.
By dispensing with freedom of movement, necessarily, immigration (and emigration, at least from the EU nations, will reduce.

Of course, the irony in this is that, immigration will increase from outside the EU and some of those driving the anti EU agenda are massively in favour of this, for a whole host of reasons.

However, immigration was THE no 1 issue in the referendum and to pretend otherwise is somewhat misguided.'"


I wasn't going to reply to this as this post is not about Brexit and certainly my reply's have mostly included Brexit and therefore, would like to apologise to the original poster.
However, with respect to you and your post. I'm not sure the whole Brexit remit was about immigration, As the main slogan from the Official Leave campaign which many remain voters love reminding me of was the slogan on the Big Red Bus which was about the amount of money we sent weekly to the EU.

Certainly controlling our own borders with regards the EU and ending freedom of movement was a big part of the referendum result. I'm not sure why you say that immigration WILL increase from outside the EU as a result, the only possible reasons this would happen surely is because, people from the EU would not want to come here, then so be it, or if people from outside the EU would be better suited to what is on offer then again I say so be it.

Most of what I do post are my opinions as most of us don't actually know what will happen if we actually do leave the EU and by that fact you could be right in some of what you say. But in contrast reading your post, you do seem to know what is going to happen.

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Quote: POSTL "I'm not sure why you say that immigration WILL increase from outside the EU as a result, the only possible reasons this would happen surely is because, people from the EU would not want to come here, then so be it, or if people from outside the EU would be better suited to what is on offer then again I say so be it.'"


It has been already - and it will do so even more post-Brexit, because those countries that some charlatans have claimed will give us the easiest trade deals in history, will want one very important thing in return - visas.

There's an irony in that whilst Nigel successfully conflated non-EU migration with EU-migration as part of his racist campaign to get people to vote Leave - the very people who responded to that (racists) will see an influx of brown people post-Brexit; the very people they wanted rid of in the first place, but which Brexit was never going to achieve.

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Quote: bren2k "It has been already - and it will do so even more post-Brexit, because those countries that some charlatans have claimed will give us the easiest trade deals in history, will want one very important thing in return - visas.

There's an irony in that whilst Nigel successfully conflated non-EU migration with EU-migration as part of his racist campaign to get people to vote Leave - the very people who responded to that (racists) will see an influx of brown people post-Brexit; the very people they wanted rid of in the first place, but which Brexit was never going to achieve.'"


I can't in all honestly disagree with what you say especially with the people likely to be negotiating these trade deals, however, with regards to this, what is to say we won't give priority to EU citizens in part of some sort of trade deal negotiations, however, this would not stop what you refer to which I believe has happened in the past. but lets hope not.

I assume your second point is referring to the poster which was put out by Farage showing the long line of what looked like poor refugees and unlike EU citizens would stand little or no chance of getting into this country. Absolutely agree, disgraceful.

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Current thoughts - Mago out or get running up them plantations, get fit or get rid. Maybe a back up halfback, someone with a bit of experience on a short term deal. Big tall strong running second rower, like a McMeekin or Sironen type back rower.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_20333.gif



Quote: Sir Kevin Sinfield "They are George Orwell books, he was a democratic socialist but opposed totalitarianism. The NHS is an example of socialism in action, do you oppose that?'"


No, not at all but it does get taken advantage of. I see it first hand with Pakistanis coming over settling for renal dialysis, Americans with diabetes, Africans with TB, Columbians having babies etc. We shouldn’t be the worlds hospital.

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Quote: post "No, not at all but it does get taken advantage of. I see it first hand with Pakistanis coming over settling for renal dialysis, Americans with diabetes, Africans with TB, Columbians having babies etc. We shouldn’t be the worlds hospital.'"

Totally agree. No NI contributions no treatment.

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Whoever stands by a just cause and fights for the freedom and liberation of his land from the invaders, the settlers and the colonialists, cannot possibly be called terrorist." — Yasser Arafat:7751.gif



Quote: post "No, not at all but it does get taken advantage of. I see it first hand with Pakistanis coming over settling for renal dialysis, Americans with diabetes, Africans with TB, Columbians having babies etc. We shouldn’t be the worlds hospital.'"



May I ask how you see this first hand?

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"If you start listening to the fans it won't be long before you're sitting with them," - Wayne Bennett.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_438.jpg

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It's a drop in the ocean and administering getting the money back costs almost as much. It'll be even more admin after no deal and we have to charge EU citizens. Just what we need in the NHS - more admin!

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Quote: post "No, not at all but it does get taken advantage of. I see it first hand with Pakistanis coming over settling for renal dialysis, Americans with diabetes, Africans with TB, Columbians having babies etc. We shouldn’t be the worlds hospital.'"

This really isn’t an issue and very rare, thought to cost £110M from the £134,000M budget or 0.08% of the nhs budget.

Also remember when we are abroad in the EU we can get medical treatment to the same level as that countries nationals. 785,000 British people living in Spain, the majority of who are pensioners get healthcare in Spain for free and at no cost to the nhs or British taxpayer.

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Whoever stands by a just cause and fights for the freedom and liberation of his land from the invaders, the settlers and the colonialists, cannot possibly be called terrorist." — Yasser Arafat:7751.gif



Quote: Sir Kevin Sinfield "This really isn’t an issue and very rare, thought to cost £110M from the £134,000M budget or 0.08% of the nhs budget.

Also remember when we are abroad in the EU we can get medical treatment to the same level as that countries nationals. 785,000 British people living in Spain, the majority of who are pensioners get healthcare in Spain for free and at no cost to the nhs or British taxpayer.'"


Actually,"deliberate health tourism" is thought be be around 120m to 280m. This includes British expats who return to the UK to see doctors. Even so, it is tiny in the big scheme of things.

But as we all know its just another exaggeration used to rile up the base.

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Quote: JACK DETH "Actually,"deliberate health tourism" is thought be be around 120m to 280m. This includes British expats who return to the UK to see doctors. Even so, it is tiny in the big scheme of things.

But as we all know its just another exaggeration used to rile up the base.'"

You're correct it is a tiny percentage. However to me it's more the principle of it. I don't go to work and pay my taxes and NI for any Tom dick and Harry to use it. Emergencies aside of course. If I have to use a doctor on holiday in Greece I have to pay the guy before he'll even see me . I then have to claim it back on my insurance, why don't we adopt the same policy

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Quote: wotsupcas "If I have to use a doctor on holiday in Greece I have to pay the guy before he'll even see me . I then have to claim it back on my insurance, why don't we adopt the same policy'"

You don’t, unless you are going to a private healthcare facility, which you would also have to pay for in the UK.
As an EU citizen you can get free medical treatment in Greece with a free EHIC card.

Your EHIC (European Health Insurance Card) gets you free treatment with any healthcare provider with a contract with the Greek National Organisation for Healthcare Services Provision (EOPYY).

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“At last, a real, Tory budget,” Daily Mail 24/9/22 "It may be that the honourable gentleman doesn't like mixing with his own side … but we on this side have a more convivial, fraternal spirit." Jacob Rees-Mogg 21/10/21 A member of the Guardian-reading, tofu-eating wokerati.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_755.jpg



Quote: wotsupcas "You're correct it is a tiny percentage. However to me it's more the principle of it. I don't go to work and pay my taxes and NI for any Tom dick and Harry to use it. Emergencies aside of course. If I have to use a doctor on holiday in Greece I have to pay the guy before he'll even see me . I then have to claim it back on my insurance, why don't we adopt the same policy'"

You are talking paranoid rubbish. I have been on holiday in Greece when a friend who became ill. We took him to the local hospital; the treatment was excellent & free. I don't think they even asked to see his card.

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"If you start listening to the fans it won't be long before you're sitting with them," - Wayne Bennett.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_438.jpg

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It's misdirection. The reason the NHS is struggling is because of under-funding not because of hordes of foreign health tourists. Blaming foreigners plays to some people's innate prejudice and allows those really responsible to get off the hook.

You're being had.

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