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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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Quote: Mild Rover "I’ll see if I can find it, thank you.'"


It is a interesting whistlestop manifesto. Especially given where he is 5 years on, and some of it is starting to be implemented. People appointed to the Lords and given ministerial roles, for example.

It warmed by heart to hear someone extolling the virtues of science but I think he has an idealised view of it. As i’m sure he’d be the first to say, things work best when incentives are well aligned, and as in all walks of life that isn’t always the case in science. As an outsider, I might easily point to some Whitehall’s magnificent achievements - living with a system is going to influence your view of it, obviously. The good scientist as bad manager cliche isn’t baseless, and while we could definitely do with a better mix of professional backgrounds in Parliament and Cabinet, I wouldn’t want to go overboard on that.

Also the commercial sector selects for success, and retrospectively pointing out what a top job Steve Jobs did, also, surely requires us to look at examples of the market and allocation of capital going wrong - Theranos, WeWork and the like. Tech entrepreneurs may be incentivised to think longer term than politicians, but that doesn’t mean the failure rate isn’t huge. It’d be great to think that our Health System might ‘do an Amazon’, or that Defence might ‘go Instagram’, but if Education is MySpace... not so hot. I know things have moved on a lot since the dotcom bust, but it’s close to certain that some current tech favourites will have crashed and burned by 2030.

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I agree. The civil service by nature needs to have some checks on risk and can't be run like a start-up. Having worked inside Whitehall, and with Whitehall departments, and on the outside, I recognise some of the stuff Cummings talks about.

The first thing people should recognise is that amongst professionals, you get the same type of people inside the civil service as you do outside. Lawyers, scientists, economists (my profession). There is a caricature that you go in the private sector and find creative, driven hard workers and you go in the civil service and everybody is sitting round eating biscuits and browsing the internet all day, which isn't true. The single main difference I observed was more women in senior positions in the civil service, especially a lot of women who had transferred in from the private sector.

I did see some of the inefficiencies that frustrated Cummings. I found there was a body of middle to senior management that seemed to exist to generate work for others to justify its own existence. They were the people who described their job as 'its about asking the right questions', or 'its about commissioning and synthesising work from others' and 'its about keeping others on track'. Worst of all is when people make a virtue out of 'delivering through others'. All too often this meant basically seeking approval from those above them, by creating 'projects' and delegating work down to those below them, then going round senior meetings talking about all the 'outputs' their team was delivering.

I got brought in during a Spending Review, to build a value for money model about a particular spending line that was going to get submitted to the Treasury. In the private sector, this would have been just a classic research project, you have a client, a deadline, you gather evidence, build a model, get some peer review, deliver. Unfortunately inside Whitehall it was infinitely complicated by having to deal with those kind of people I described above. Before we could get started on the project, there was a whole rigmarole about writing a terms of reference, sending it round, getting comments, rewriting, getting sign off. Then we had to set up 'governance procedures', so we had to set up an internal governance board and we had to meet them every 3 weeks and for each board we had to write some papers for them to discuss. Then someone would say 'are we engaging with other government departments on this?' and so we had to set up another governance board which included other departments, with a different set of papers to be written for them. Then we had the internal 'central team' who had been set up to 'keep everyone else on track' and who had their own project meetings every few weeks, who kept asking for slidepacks to be generated showing 'findings so far'.

Now in the private sector, you'd usually keep in touch with the client with updates/questions and asking for their input as and when it was required, and would have a halfway point where you'd give them an interim findings presentation and slidepack, but this was a 6 month project that I think we could have done in 3 in the private sector, but it became really difficult to deliver in 6 months because of all the work we had to do on the side to feed these multiple internal project management processes.

What also annoyed me was that in none of these various governance reporting meetings did we actually have constructive conversations about the detail of the value for money evidence or interested in taking any of it on board to help shape policy decisions. They liked to talk about 'outputs and timescales'. Well, the whole project had a single output and a 6 month timescale, but they were desperate to get 'interim outputs' because they wanted stuff to fill on project trackers to show their own seniors that work was being delivered. We were producing papers for the purpose of having papers, just to tick a box, and when I moaned about it I always got told 'you have to play the game....thats how Whitehall works'. The moment I started trying to engage these people on the detail of the evidence or get them to discuss implications for policy they weren't interested in talking, they just saw this as something that needed to be delivered for the Treasury and didn't much care what it said. They weren't going to change any policy decisions on the back of it.

So although I said its a caricature that civil servants sit around doing nothing, I think there's a cadre of staff there on around £60-70k who have worked out how to play the system, and are on to a cushy number, just generating project management processes that they delegate down to others to service. On the other hand, I found some superb brains, often young staff including a lot of PhD analysts, underpaid, renting in crappy conditions in London, who could produce some real quality work but whose efficiency was being diminished by being diverted away to service this project management crap.

Final gripe on this - when I met project managers in the private sector, they usually had some kind of professional qualification, PRINCE2 or whatever. In the civil service there were all these bloody project managers, they had no formal qualifications for it, they didn't actually provide any leadership in to the projects, they just said to others 'draw up a gantt chart to show me your planned timescales', 'send me a slidepack showing me where you're up to', printed them all out and attended senior meetings with evidence that they had kept stuff on track. They wouldn't engage in any problem solving or talk about what members of a project team needed to do or how they should do it, they just kicked all of the grappling with the detail to those lower down the chain and saw their job as 'holding them accountable'. Nice way to earn £60k.

Now in the interests of balance, I saw a lot of crap in the private sector that I didn't see in Whitehall. In the private sector I seemed to spend a lot of my time 'selling my services', filling out bids for work, networking with clients to try and get work from them. In Whitehall work just gets thrown at you. Also there are a lot of toxic cultures in the private sector that you don't get in Whitehall....the pressure to drink and take clients out, the abuse of the company credit card for expenses, the little cheap cost-cutting tricks to fleece clients to show your bosses that you were hitting your project 'profit mark up' targets. I found a lot more toxic gossip and internal politics and people stabbing others in the back to get ahead in the private sector, in the civil service that didn't seem to happen.

Also, in private sector economic consultancy you get a cadre of seniors who spend all day tweeting, writing blogs, going to events as a 'panel speaker', acting as talking heads for Sky News as an 'expert' and literally do no work, other than sticking themselves down for 1 day work on every project bid at a £2500 a day rate and being very expensive proof readers. In the civil service the Chief Economists and whatever do a lot more meaningful and constructive work than that and get paid less. There were some very impressive people high up in the senior civil service.

So I am not arguing for the superiority of private v public sector....but I understand Cummings frustrations with the inefficiencies of the Whitehall machine and I can see what he means when he says you could cut a huge chunk of staff out and make it more efficient. What I fear from Cummings is that he will leave Whitehall in charge of making its own redundancies and 'the system' will protect itself and force out good people at the bottom. And also he might get involved in a war on 'flexi-time' to appease the tabloids that he was being tough on lazy Remainers. Of all the problems I found in Whitehall, things like job shares or staff being able to work from home was not a problem for me.

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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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A couple of things I think Cummings has maybe or probably got wrong.

1. He acknowledges leveraging immigration in the Leave campaign with a view to detoxifying the debate and it becoming a second or third order issue after Brexit. That feels like a typical liberal bubble error, of thinking he’s pacifying those with the most visceral concerns rather than having empowered them.

2. Johnson forcibly reassured Cummings that he’d stand by his commitments to the NHS. That feels like a classical logician’s error of checking for internal consistency without considering dishonesty.

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Well once again Johnson was telling falsehoods because despite his confirmation that the planning for a no deal would continue he actually cancelled it before Christmas. He is either very confident he will get an acceptable deal or he doesn’t really care what happens.

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Rlfans - the most toxic rugby league forum in the world:



As much as I hate the tories, all politicians lie.

It’s not confined to the Tory party so don’t pretend it is

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Quote: Steph Curry "As much as I hate the tories, all politicians lie.

It’s not confined to the Tory party so don’t pretend it is'"


Sorry, I'm not having that. What weve seen with Trump and now Johnson is lying on an industrial scale. Sadly, there is a percentage of the electorate that only read the headlines, they dont do detail - and as with Brexit they have been hoovered up and encouraged to vote for something that will make their lives even tougher.

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Quote: silver2 "Sorry, I'm not having that. What weve seen with Trump and now Johnson is lying on an industrial scale. Sadly, there is a percentage of the electorate that only read the headlines, they dont do detail - and as with Brexit they have been hoovered up and encouraged to vote for something that will make their lives even tougher.'"

More socialist bollox, YOU LOST!

But don't worry, the Yawnions will protectt you.

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Quote: silver2 "Sadly, there is a percentage of the electorate that only read the headlines, they dont do detail - and as with Brexit they have been hoovered up and encouraged to vote for something that will make their lives even tougher.'"


Can you think of any members of this forum, who are an example of this section of the electorate eusa_think.gif icon_lol.gif

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Quote: IR80 "More socialist bollox, YOU LOST!

But don't worry, the Yawnions will protectt you.'"


Surely, if brexit turns out in accordance with Johnson's promises then weve all won. Havent we?

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Quote: silver2 "Surely, if brexit turns out in accordance with Johnson's promises then weve all won. Havent we?'"

Democracy won, full stop.

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Quote: silver2 "Surely, if brexit turns out in accordance with Johnson's promises then weve all won. Havent we?'"

Democracy won, full stop.

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Quote: IR80 "Democracy won, full stop.'"


So, we may be worse off financially and culturally but if that's what the majority want so be it?

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Quote: silver2 "So, we may be worse off financially and culturally but if that's what the majority want so be it?'"

Culture is subjective, finance has yet to be seen. That is how democracy works, the MAJORITY get their way.

how does leaving the EU impact us culturally out of interest?

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Quote: IR80 " That is how democracy works, the MAJORITY get their way.

?'"


Are you sure about that?

Didn’t the leave camp lose the popular vote at the election? icon_biggrin.gif

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Quote: Superblue "Are you sure about that?

Didn’t the leave camp lose the popular vote at the election? Not in any results I have seen.

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20:00
Castleford
v
Warrington
20:00
Leeds
v
Catalans
 Sat 24th Aug
     National Rugby League 2024-R25
06:00
Canberra
v
Penrith
08:30
Melbourne
v
Dolphins
10:35
Souths
v
Newcastle
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R23
14:00
Salford
v
Huddersfield
15:00
St.Helens
v
Hull KR
       Championship 2024-R23
18:00
Featherstone
v
Toulouse
 Sun 25th Aug
     National Rugby League 2024-R25
05:00
Gold Coast
v
Sydney
07:05
St.George
v
Cronulla
       League One 2024-R21
13:00
Oldham
v
Cornwall
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R23
15:00
LondonB
v
Leigh
15:00
Wigan
v
Hull FC
       Championship 2024-R23
15:00
Barrow
v
Swinton
15:00
Dewsbury
v
Whitehaven
15:00
Doncaster
v
Bradford
15:00
Halifax
v
Wakefield
15:00
Widnes
v
Sheffield
15:00
York
v
Batley
       League One 2024-R21
15:00
Keighley
v
Hunslet
15:00
Rochdale
v
Crusaders
15:00
Workington
v
Newcastle
 Thu 29th Aug
     National Rugby League 2024-R26
10:50
NQL Cowboys
v
Melbourne
 Fri 30th Aug
     National Rugby League 2024-R26
09:00
Canterbury
v
Manly
11:00
Penrith
v
Souths
       Championship 2024-R24
19:30
Bradford
v
Dewsbury
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R24
20:00
Hull KR
v
Salford
20:00
Leigh
v
Warrington
 Sat 31st Aug
     National Rugby League 2024-R26
06:00
Parramatta
v
St.George
08:30
Dolphins
v
Brisbane
10:35
Cronulla
v
NZ Warriors
       League One 2024-R22
14:00
Midlands
v
Hunslet
     Womens Super League 2024-R12
14:00
FeatherstoneW
v
BarrowW
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R24
15:00
Hull FC
v
Castleford
       Championship 2024-R24
17:00
Toulouse
v
Sheffield
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R24
20:00
Catalans
v
Wigan
 Sun 1st Sep
     National Rugby League 2024-R26
05:00
Newcastle
v
Gold Coast
07:05
Sydney
v
Canberra
     Womens Super League 2024-R12
12:00
LeedsW
v
York V
12:00
WiganW
v
Wire W
14:00
Hudds W
v
St.HelensW
       League One 2024-R22
14:30
Crusaders
v
Cornwall
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R24
15:00
Huddersfield
v
St.Helens
15:00
LondonB
v
Leeds
       Championship 2024-R24
15:00
Batley
v
Widnes
15:00
Doncaster
v
Halifax
15:00
Featherstone
v
Barrow
15:00
Swinton
v
Wakefield
15:00
Whitehaven
v
York
       League One 2024-R22
15:00
Oldham
v
Workington
15:00
Rochdale
v
Keighley
 Thu 5th Sep 2024
     National Rugby League 2024-R27
10:50
Brisbane
v
Melbourne
 Fri 6th Sep 2024
     National Rugby League 2024-R27
09:00
Wests
v
Parramatta
11:00
Souths
v
Sydney
     Womens Super League 2024-R13
17:15
Wire W
v
St.HelensW
17:30
LeedsW
v
FeatherstoneW
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R25
20:00
Castleford
v
Leigh
20:00
Leeds
v
Hull FC
20:00
Warrington
v
St.Helens
20:00
Wigan
v
Hull KR
 Sat 7th Sep 2024
     National Rugby League 2024-R27
06:00
St.George
v
Canberra
08:30
Canterbury
v
NQL Cowboys
10:35
Penrith
v
Gold Coast
     Womens Super League 2024-R13
12:00
BarrowW
v
Hudds W
       Championship 2024-R25
15:00
Barrow
v
Toulouse
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R25
18:00
Salford
v
Catalans
 Sun 8th Sep 2024
     National Rugby League 2024-R27
05:00
Manly
v
Cronulla
07:05
Newcastle
v
Dolphins
     Womens Super League 2024-R13
12:00
WiganW
v
York V
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R25
15:00
Huddersfield
v
LondonB
       Championship 2024-R25
15:00
Batley
v
Doncaster
15:00
Halifax
v
Dewsbury
15:00
Sheffield
v
Bradford
15:00
Swinton
v
Featherstone
15:00
Wakefield
v
Whitehaven
15:00
Widnes
v
York
 Fri 13th Sep 2024
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R26
20:00
Leigh
v
Hull KR
20:00
St.Helens
v
Castleford
20:00
Wigan
v
Leeds
 Sat 14th Sep 2024
     Womens Super League 2024-R14
14:00
FeatherstoneW
v
York V
14:00
St.HelensW
v
BarrowW
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R26
15:00
Hull FC
v
Salford
       Championship 2024-R26
15:00
Barrow
v
Whitehaven
15:00
Bradford
v
Batley
15:00
Dewsbury
v
Swinton
15:00
Doncaster
v
Widnes
15:00
Featherstone
v
Sheffield
15:00
Wakefield
v
York
17:00
Toulouse
v
Halifax
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R26
20:00
Catalans
v
LondonB
 Sun 15th Sep 2024
     Womens Super League 2024-R14
12:00
WiganW
v
LeedsW
14:00
Hudds W
v
Wire W
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R26
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Warrington
 Fri 20th Sep 2024
       Championship 2024-R27
19:30
Sheffield
v
York
     Mens Super League XXVIII-R27
20:00
Huddersfield
v
Castleford
20:00
Hull FC
v
Catalans
20:00
Hull KR
v
Leeds
20:00
Leigh
v
St.Helens
20:00
Warrington
v
LondonB
20:00
Wigan
v
Salford
 Sat 21st Sep 2024
       Championship 2024-R27
18:00
Featherstone
v
Dewsbury
18:00
Widnes
v
Toulouse
19:30
Wakefield
v
Barrow
 Sun 22nd Sep 2024
       Championship 2024-R27
15:00
Batley
v
Swinton
15:00
Halifax
v
Bradford
15:00
Swinton
v
Doncaster
 Sat 28th Sep 2024
       Championship 2024-R28
17:00
Toulouse
v
Batley
 Sun 29th Sep 2024
       Championship 2024-R28
15:00
Barrow
v
Widnes
15:00
Bradford
v
Swinton
15:00
Dewsbury
v
Sheffield
15:00
Wakefield
v
Doncaster
15:00
Whitehaven
v
Halifax
15:00
York
v
Featherstone
 Sun 27th Oct 2024
     Mens Internationals 2024-R2
14:30
England M
v
Samoa M
 Sat 2nd Nov 2024
     Mens Internationals 2024-R3
14:30
England M
v
Samoa M
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Fri 2nd Aug
SL
20:00
Warrington-Hull KR
Sat 3rd Aug
SL
15:00
Hull FC-St.Helens
SL
17:30
Salford-Leeds
Sun 4th Aug
SL
15:00
LondonB-Catalans
Thu 8th Aug
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Salford
Fri 9th Aug
SL
20:00
Huddersfield-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
Sat 10th Aug
SL
15:00
Leeds-Wigan
Sun 11th Aug
SL
15:00
Leigh-Hull FC
SL
15:00
LondonB-Warrington
Sat 17th Aug
SL
19:30
Warrington-Leeds
SL
17:00
Wigan-St.Helens
SL
14:30
Hull FC-LondonB
Sun 18th Aug
SL
13:30
Leigh-Salford
SL
15:00
Catalans-Hull KR
SL
18:30
Huddersfield-Castleford
Fri 23rd Aug
SL
20:00
Castleford-Warrington
SL
20:00
Leeds-Catalans
Sat 24th Aug
SL
15:00
St.Helens-Hull KR
SL
14:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Fri 2nd Aug
NRL
LIVE
NZ Warriors20-30Parramatta
Thu 1st Aug
SL 20 Castleford10-20Leigh
SL 20 Wigan26-14Huddersfield
NRL 22 Wests30-48NQL Cowboys
Sun 28th Jul
NRL 21 St.George10-46Penrith
NRL 21 Dolphins14-21Gold Coast
NRL 21 Canberra32-12Souths
CH 19 Batley16-22Halifax
CH 19 Doncaster37-30Barrow
CH 19 Sheffield78-24Whitehaven
CH 19 Wakefield46-18Featherstone
CH 19 Widnes25-6Bradford
CH 19 York34-4Swinton
L1 17 Newcastle34-44Cornwall
L1 17 Hunslet24-32Workington
L1 17 Keighley36-12Midlands
L1 17 Rochdale10-14Oldham
Sat 27th Jul
SL 19 Salford30-22Castleford
SL 19 Catalans24-16Hull FC
NRL 21 Brisbane16-41Canterbury
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 19 495 258 237 30
Warrington 19 498 245 253 28
Hull KR 19 481 255 226 28
Catalans 19 366 274 92 24
Salford 19 355 366 -11 24
St.Helens 19 455 256 199 22
 
Leeds 19 355 342 13 20
Leigh 19 392 286 106 19
Huddersfield 20 350 453 -103 14
Castleford 20 336 523 -187 13
Hull FC 19 268 566 -298 6
LondonB 19 198 725 -527 2
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 17 584 206 378 32
Sheffield 17 488 283 205 24
Toulouse 16 468 220 248 23
Widnes 17 410 307 103 21
Bradford 17 397 297 100 21
Doncaster 17 318 410 -92 17
 
York 18 428 345 83 16
Featherstone 17 440 359 81 16
Batley 17 284 366 -82 16
Swinton 17 342 422 -80 12
Halifax 17 318 459 -141 12
Barrow 16 255 458 -203 12
Whitehaven 17 336 556 -220 12
Dewsbury 18 224 560 -336 2
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