If you're funding rebels, some of them questionable at that, for self interest and profit, then that's questionable. A good act done for sinister reasons is nothing to applaud. Context matters. There's nothing inherently evil in funding rebels, neither is it inherently good. Each case would need taking on individual merit.

We've supported plenty of murderous regimes, too, and quelled rebel uprisings (with more legitimacy than that of Syria or Libya) aplenty.

So you appear to have decided this funding is questionable? Is that because you think the victims or the Syrian regime are less worthy than suppoters of said regime? Or because you instinctively prefer to assume your country acts out of bad intention?

He gave examples both ways .... which bit of "context matters" don't you understand?

I've decided it's questionable because I can point to example after example after example of our government proving they have no regard for the welfare of citizens in other nations, often to the extent of funding and supporting the brutal governments against innocent people.

Do I need to list every ugly regime that we've put our support behind. Do I need to list every brutal regime that's been ignored, citizens left to suffer, by our government? Yes, with that in mind, when I see the government supporting citizens against a government in some far off land I have to question their intentions, as would any thinking person.

Ceausescu, Suharto, Karimov, Rajapaksa, Omar al-Bashir, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Pinochet, Mubarak and Gaddafi too at one point. There's a couple to start with. Or what about supporting the attacks/ethnic cleansing of the Kurds, support for the Saudi establishment, Bahrain establishment, the illegal removal of Mosaddegh in favour of Pahlavi the Pawn, etc. When the ANC were rising up against the Apartheid regime in South Africa, we condemned them as nought but terrorists. Tip of the iceberg stuff. It wasn't that long ago that Bashir al-Assad himself was buying chemical agents from us.

I don't expect your or anybody else to agree with all of those, but you'd at the very least have to concede a few of them.

The British government has proven time and time again that it cares bugger all for supporting oppressed peoples and taking down dictatorships. The government care and take action when it suits, just as they support these brutal regimes when it suits. Foreign policy is decided on economic grounds, not morality.

To be fair – or at least, in the interests of accuracy – the UK government is far from the only one.

And I do think that we equally have to be careful about running the risk of excusing – or being seen to excuse – certain crimes.

I maintain little fondness for much UK foreign policy (I campaigned against the Iraq war – whatever that means – and have maintained ever since that Blair and Dubya should be tried in the Hague) and less still for Islamic fundamentalism (or any other religious fundamentalisms, just to be quite clear)

I've noted for some years that it would just have been cheaper – certainly in human costs – if we'd just handed Al-Qaeda a recruitment budget.

But we should also be wary of too easily excusing atrocities, whether they're genuine 'terrorist' crimes or not.

We effectively have, in this country, a form of economic conscription: there is a real class issue here and we should absolutely be clear not to demonise our soldiers (use of word "our" entirely deliberate).

But we should also not allow an analysis of our own, ongoing imperialistic adventurism to disguise the fact that, in some places (we have not been involved in Somalia, for instance) Islamic fundamentalism exists as an inhumane, sexist, homophobic, barbaric ethos.

To clarify: that is not to say that all Muslims are fundamentalists ... etc etc. The point being that it's so damned difficult to have this conversation sensibly, as this thread illustrates.

Absolutely. It's in the nature of almost all governments I can think of to lie, and to take advantage of others where they can, even if it means waging wars or supporting tyrants. Powerful countries are more prone to it merely because they have the capacity to do it and do it well. I'm only harping on about our own track record because it's a British based forum and, naturally, I take an interest in the political goings on in my own backyard.

I'm with you. Bad foreign policy might exacerbate certain issues, it might push some people towards radicalism, but it's in no way a cause of radicalism or necessary for radicalism.

The point really was that you can't deduce much about the nature of Islam from data alone. Most groups have a capacity for abhorrent violence from fringe elements if the environment is right.

A bit of information about the women who were seen on that video i potsed at the begining of the thread about how it all seemed Odd. Seems there are some very compassionate and brave women out there www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ead_module

A bit of information about the women who were seen on that video i potsed at the begining of the thread about how it all seemed Odd. Seems there are some very compassionate and brave women out there www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ead_module

Don't flatter yourself thinking it's a fixation. I have pointed out to others their bullying before.

It's nothing to do with you being a woman, nothing. It's because you were the most honest person on here a while ago, self-disclosing what a bad relationship you had with religion and your younger years. That's what stood out. Your honesty.

That image gets tainted behind your need to harass and belittle people. Your last paragraph with all it's "suggestion" or asking "is there something I'd like to tell you" just highlights your insecurities and need to attack or belittle.

Just remember. You chose to send me a PM about your past and a discussion about counselling. I didn't invite it. Yet I was honoured that you did. It did give me an insight into your above behaviour.

Interesting article about one of the attackers. If true it raises a lot of points of relevance to this thread and others. If you brutalise people is it surprising that they become brutal themselves www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/2 ... ya-torture

Interesting article about one of the attackers. If true it raises a lot of points of relevance to this thread and others. If you brutalise people is it surprising that they become brutal themselves www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/2 ... ya-torture

RIP Lee Rigby

Thoughts with the family you leave behind, can't imagine how hard it is to have all this played out in public for them and to see the killer with blood on his hands only seconds after this awful crime had been committed.

I realise that this goes against the grain of the thread somewhat, sorry about that.

I would say your post is very pertinent to the thread, most of the other posts have gone off at a usual Sin Bin tangent and have become embroiled in the usual religious and political arguments behind it. The sad thing is that there is a dead young man who has left a distraught wife and a small child grieving, which becomes secondary to these arguments.

Who appointed you?



"Were"? So when did that stop and when did you decide that I ceased to be honest, eh?

Just so we know, since you clearly consider yourself the self-appointed expert on such matters.

And would that have been honesty as opposed to your disingenuous and downright intellectually dishonest suggestion that, because I asked you for evidence of your claims, I thought everything was hunky dory?

I'm not self-appointed anything.

You probably are still very honest, I ain't been on here much. but I was gobsmacked at the time of your self-disclosure. That's where I first thought how open and honest you were.

Why make up stuff earlier stuff in your own mind and say I said it, massive surge" (which wasn't said). "Attacks like this" once again made up in your mind. You're even making stuff in your own mind about me being a self-appointed whatever. There's a similar theme starting here.

But really, why get personal? You did and you do to others. I thought you're above that. After all, you are a strong woman remember?

Do you know what, I would have loved to have had a pint with you one day. But now, I'll move out of your way.

"Get personal"? And you haven't?

This is turning into a good diversion from your claim – which I have linked to and quoted, in context, so as to avoid any confusion – and your subsequent attempt to claim that I thought that everything was wonderful.

My suspicion is that what you mean by my apparent loss of honesty is that, as someone who does not personally 'like' religion and has a 'history' with it, you expect me to indulge in a little kneejerkery over this last week's murder. I suspect that you might have become so convinced of the correctness of these social media claims that you've come across about an increase in Islamic-related hate crimes that you think that anyone who asks for evidence of the same is either living in a sort of imaginary place where they don't notice what is going on or is deliberately pretending that nothing is going on for 'political' reasons.

This – and this is bringing us properly back on topic – is rubbish. There are real issues around integration (or lack thereof) and some Muslims.

But my 'liking' religion or not does not suddenly mean that all Muslims are fundamentalists and/or terrorists any more than all adherents of any other religion are fundamentalists etc. That is a simple fact. And a subjective like or dislike of religion does not alter that reality one iota. And I like to think that my critical faculties allow an understanding of that – regardless of whether or not I 'like' Islam or any other religion. That, I think, is 'honest'.

Hyperbolic ranting does nothing to deal with the serious issue of radicalisation/brainwashing of some people – mainly young men – and how on earth that is tackled in a way that prevents it happening in the first place.

And I repeatExpress[/i, the [iSun[/i and the [iMail[/i are caught up in a PC web of hiding such crimes, then you really need help.

Maybe I shouldn't have retaliated to your initial personal digs, suggestions and inmuendo. But I did. Unfortunately.

You make so much stuff up in your mind about what i think or what's happening. Getting it wrong all the time. Something that would be easily resolved in a conversation. But off you fly attack attack attack . And it is I that needs help is it? About something I don't even believe!