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Does Johnson even know how many kids he’s got. Although with him being a Tory i should say “does Johnson know how many piglets he’s got”. Pigs & Tories seem to be quite close to one another.

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Quote: The Ghost of '99 "I'll cut the rest of this misinformed (being polite rant) to just mention that we can add an understanding of Polish politics and corruption to the things Sal pontificates on but doesn't actually know about.'"


Are you saying what I said is not true? I would suggest your clueless understanding of anything has once again been exposed for what it is - any kind of basic comprehension and you are the classic oxymoron icon_biggrin.gif

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Quote: Mild Rover "The Conservatives are the party of capital, with a long history of prioritising its interests ahead of labour rights. While the Conservatives have been in government since 2010, their ability to de-regulate the labour market and change workers’ rights has been constrained by EU law. Leaving the EU is why this may start now. The fear (or hope, I suppose) is even greater because the One Nation wing of the party is in retreat and Johnson’s cabinet is further to the economic right than Cameron’s or May’s. However, it will only happen with a democratic mandate - if people vote to keep people like Dominic Raab and JRM in power, then they are willing to accept lighter regulation and different (i’m trying to avoid emotive or overly biased language, but realistically I mean ‘lower’) standards, and that is their choice.

Why would many people, who rely on selling their labour, do that... why might it be a vote winner? Well, that is a question based on the assumption that we live in a democracy. And we do, both legally and to a large extent in reality. But it isn’t a pure democracy - such a thing would be hugely difficult to achieve and maintain. To some degree the UK is a de facto plutocracy. The Conservatives particularly rely on the support of plutocrats to gain and hold power, and therefore tend to prioritise their interests ahead of those of workers.'"


As has been already pointed out the UK could reduce workers rights and still offer better conditions than are available across the EU. I ask again would reducing workers rights lead to more voters backing them? Of course not so why do it - its project fear all over.

Come on without the votes of the working class the Tories cannot get into and stay in power. We have a one person one vote this is not like the Labour party whereby the unions hold all the power. It appears that is the kind of democracy you like i.e. a few telling the majority what to do.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "As has been already pointed out the UK could reduce workers rights and still offer better conditions than are available across the EU. I ask again would reducing workers rights lead to more voters backing them? Of course not so why do it - its project fear all over.

Come on without the votes of the working class the Tories cannot get into and stay in power. We have a one person one vote this is not like the Labour party whereby the unions hold all the power. It appears that is the kind of democracy you like i.e. a few telling the majority what to do.'"


Yeah, that’s kinda the opposite of what I intended to say. I assume your response is deliberate misrepresentation, but let me know if you just misunderstood my point.

We are very fortunate. According to the EIU, we are among the just 4.5% of the world’s population who live in a full democracy, and the UK is ranked the 14th most democratic of 167 countries.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

However, the one person, one vote characterisation is somewhat naive.

the Conservatives won’t call it ‘reducing workers’ rights’, because that clearly wouldn’t win votes, you’re right. It’d be sold as ‘building an agile modern economy’ reflecting the ‘flexibility of today’s workplaces’, ‘allowing Britain to exploit fully opportunities for growth’ or some such. On page 18 of their manifesto, ideally.
Quote: Sal Paradise "As has been already pointed out the UK could reduce workers rights and still offer better conditions than are available across the EU. I ask again would reducing workers rights lead to more voters backing them? Of course not so why do it - its project fear all over.

Come on without the votes of the working class the Tories cannot get into and stay in power. We have a one person one vote this is not like the Labour party whereby the unions hold all the power. It appears that is the kind of democracy you like i.e. a few telling the majority what to do.'"


Yeah, that’s kinda the opposite of what I intended to say. I assume your response is deliberate misrepresentation, but let me know if you just misunderstood my point.

We are very fortunate. According to the EIU, we are among the just 4.5% of the world’s population who live in a full democracy, and the UK is ranked the 14th most democratic of 167 countries.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

However, the one person, one vote characterisation is somewhat naive.

the Conservatives won’t call it ‘reducing workers’ rights’, because that clearly wouldn’t win votes, you’re right. It’d be sold as ‘building an agile modern economy’ reflecting the ‘flexibility of today’s workplaces’, ‘allowing Britain to exploit fully opportunities for growth’ or some such. On page 18 of their manifesto, ideally.


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Quote: Sal Paradise "As has been already pointed out the UK could reduce workers rights and still offer better conditions than are available across the EU. I ask again would reducing workers rights lead to more voters backing them? Of course not so why do it - its project fear all over.

Come on without the votes of the working class the Tories cannot get into and stay in power. We have a one person one vote this is not like the Labour party whereby the unions hold all the power. It appears that is the kind of democracy you like i.e. a few telling the majority what to do.'"


If you are so confident that there will be no reduction in workers rights etc, how do you explain why this was moved from "guaranteed" to "maybe" in the withdrawal agreement.
Surely, a party so committed icon_lol.gif to protecting citizens and workers rights, would want them to be secured in law and yet, your beloved leader chose to move these down the list, quelle surprise.

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The document that was leaked over the weekend, and forced Kwasi Kwarteng to scurry onto the news media to defend, makes this argument moot; workers rights and protections were *deliberately* removed from the legal element of the deal, which makes them fair game in a post-Brexit situation. And anyone who does not see the creeping US style gig economy that we have now as being accelerated by that, is either wilfully dishonest, or thick.

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Quote: bren2k "The document that was leaked over the weekend, and forced Kwasi Kwarteng to scurry onto the news media to defend, makes this argument moot; workers rights and protections were *deliberately* removed from the legal element of the deal, which makes them fair game in a post-Brexit situation. And anyone who does not see the creeping US style gig economy that we have now as being accelerated by that, is either wilfully dishonest, or thick.'"


We still come back to the point of why would any party reduce workers rights - these are the very people they rely on to keep them in power. It makes no sense. The idea was to enable to UK to make its own laws - why everyone is focusing on this is simply to have a go at the Tories over a fictitious threat.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "We still come back to the point of why would any party reduce workers rights - these are the very people they rely on to keep them in power. It makes no sense. The idea was to enable to UK to make its own laws - why everyone is focusing on this is simply to have a go at the Tories over a fictitious threat.'"


Then why remove it from the text that was legally protected?

It has long been said that the more swivel-eyed Brexiteers, of the Rees-Mogg and Francois variety, were interested in a bonfire of regulations; Rees-Mogg is on record as suggesting it in a Treasury Select Committee meeting. Now that the swivel-eyed have taken over the Tory party, it's entirely reasonable to assume that Boris Johnson is being held hostage by their extreme version of Brexit.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "We still come back to the point of why would any party reduce workers rights - these are the very people they rely on to keep them in power. It makes no sense. The idea was to enable to UK to make its own laws - why everyone is focusing on this is simply to have a go at the Tories over a fictitious threat.'"


Do you really think that the average Uber driver or worker in Sports Direct or Amazon warehouses, usually votes Tory ?
There is a move to make our workforce less secure and while it may be easier to move jobs, it will also be equally simple for companies to off load staff. Great, if you are wanting to make your company more profitable but, less good if you have a mortgage or rent to pay.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "Do you really think that the average Uber driver or worker in Sports Direct or Amazon warehouses, usually votes Tory ?
There is a move to make our workforce less secure and while it may be easier to move jobs, it will also be equally simple for companies to off load staff. Great, if you are wanting to make your company more profitable but, less good if you have a mortgage or rent to pay.'"


I think a lot of workers on minimum wage vote Tory - they would get 13m+ votes without them. We still come back to the issue of how do you attract staff - if things are really bad nobody will go there to work - as we have seen with the crop picking - according to labour tonnes of food has been left rotting in the ground because the farmers couldn't get migrant labour - they also couldn't get uk labour either.

Simple solution pay more and that is the reality of most businesses including mine - I have to be competitive or I will not attract the quality of people I need to move my business forward. Its not rocket science.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "I think a lot of workers on minimum wage vote Tory - they would get 13m+ votes without them. We still come back to the issue of how do you attract staff - if things are really bad nobody will go there to work - as we have seen with the crop picking - according to labour tonnes of food has been left rotting in the ground because the farmers couldn't get migrant labour - they also couldn't get uk labour either.

Simple solution pay more and that is the reality of most businesses including mine - I have to be competitive or I will not attract the quality of people I need to move my business forward. Its not rocket science.'"


There’s more to it than just pay though.

Also, if companies can undercut competitors by moving their priorities toward profits and clients, then workers good options are likely to become fewer.

It is a difficult balancing act, because profits and clients are the whole point businesses exist. And in many industries, companies are competing globally.

Unless there is a shortage of labour of the right type, workers rights, conditions, and pay will tend to be squeezed in a capitalist system by competing capitalists. Supply and demand and all that. People like Raab, for example, want that competition to be more aggressive and restraints on the capitalist system to be reduced. My concern, and that of many others, is that will damage people’s quality of life and our society as a whole.

You keep implying they won’t do things that are unpopular with the electorate, but if they can get in off the back of Brexit and a poorly led labour party, then they’re going indulge some of their pet projects - why go into politics if you can’t do some of the things you believe in? And a de-regulated economy, following the model of some Asian countries is exactly the sort of thing our Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary and Minister for International Trade believe in. They even wrote it down in a book, for avoidance of doubt.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19300051

Why would they do it? Because they want to and they can. You and I and most of the rest of the country might agree it is a bad and unpopular idea. However, I don’t agree that democracy is going to protect us from it.
Quote: Sal Paradise "I think a lot of workers on minimum wage vote Tory - they would get 13m+ votes without them. We still come back to the issue of how do you attract staff - if things are really bad nobody will go there to work - as we have seen with the crop picking - according to labour tonnes of food has been left rotting in the ground because the farmers couldn't get migrant labour - they also couldn't get uk labour either.

Simple solution pay more and that is the reality of most businesses including mine - I have to be competitive or I will not attract the quality of people I need to move my business forward. Its not rocket science.'"


There’s more to it than just pay though.

Also, if companies can undercut competitors by moving their priorities toward profits and clients, then workers good options are likely to become fewer.

It is a difficult balancing act, because profits and clients are the whole point businesses exist. And in many industries, companies are competing globally.

Unless there is a shortage of labour of the right type, workers rights, conditions, and pay will tend to be squeezed in a capitalist system by competing capitalists. Supply and demand and all that. People like Raab, for example, want that competition to be more aggressive and restraints on the capitalist system to be reduced. My concern, and that of many others, is that will damage people’s quality of life and our society as a whole.

You keep implying they won’t do things that are unpopular with the electorate, but if they can get in off the back of Brexit and a poorly led labour party, then they’re going indulge some of their pet projects - why go into politics if you can’t do some of the things you believe in? And a de-regulated economy, following the model of some Asian countries is exactly the sort of thing our Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary and Minister for International Trade believe in. They even wrote it down in a book, for avoidance of doubt.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19300051

Why would they do it? Because they want to and they can. You and I and most of the rest of the country might agree it is a bad and unpopular idea. However, I don’t agree that democracy is going to protect us from it.


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Quote: Sal Paradise "I think a lot of workers on minimum wage vote Tory - they would get 13m+ votes without them. We still come back to the issue of how do you attract staff - if things are really bad nobody will go there to work - as we have seen with the crop picking - according to labour tonnes of food has been left rotting in the ground because the farmers couldn't get migrant labour - they also couldn't get uk labour either.

Simple solution pay more and that is the reality of most businesses including mine - I have to be competitive or I will not attract the quality of people I need to move my business forward. Its not rocket science.'"


And ironically, the increase in hourly rates, has brought with it more and more zero hours contracts and in the "delivery" sector, a move to increased numbers of "self employed" drivers, who are in everything but name, agency drivers, serving just one paymaster.
Back in the day, they would have been employed full time on a "proper" contract and entitled to sick pay and paid holidays.

Some of these people like being their own boss but, dont kid yourself that its progress. The same goes for Uber and many of the large employers, who now have a vast array of part time staff, to avoid the expense of NI and sick pay.

So, ask the question about "why" the government would want to lose employees protection from the deal ??

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Quote: wrencat1873 "And ironically, the increase in hourly rates, has brought with it more and more zero hours contracts and in the "delivery" sector, a move to increased numbers of "self employed" drivers, who are in everything but name, agency drivers, serving just one paymaster.
Back in the day, they would have been employed full time on a "proper" contract and entitled to sick pay and paid holidays.

Some of these people like being their own boss but, dont kid yourself that its progress. The same goes for Uber and many of the large employers, who now have a vast array of part time staff, to avoid the expense of NI and sick pay.

So, ask the question about "why" the government would want to lose employees protection from the deal ??'"


I would never employ anyone on a zero hours contract - I don't think it is correct but it does suit some people. I need take Uber prefer Amber in Leeds although I think they are pretty much self employed.

I employ 170 drivers none on zero hour contracts I do have a big demand from self-employed drivers and lose drivers to it - IR35 will put a stop to that.

Employee protection was part of a whole raft of items that moved from the EU control to the UK Parliament as part of Boris' WA - Labour just highlighted it as an easy target - when they have no evidence whatsoever that the Tories will do anything and there is no evidence to base it on. Just Labour grasping at straws - project fear.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "We still come back to the point of why would any party reduce workers rights - '"

Because these are the sorts of socialist interventions into the free market which you have been warning us about? I'd have thought you'd be manning the barricades to get rid of them; or does your forceful bluster about Marxism and Socialism waver when it comes to actual details?

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Boris Johnson said he’d rather be dead in a ditch than extend the Brexit deadline beyond 31st October

Once again he’s been shown to be a proven liar, you can’t trust a single word he says

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     Mens Super League XXX-R4
20:00
Salford
v
Huddersfield
 Fri 21st Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R4
20:00
St.Helens
v
Warrington
20:00
Wakefield
v
Hull FC
 Sat 22nd Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R4
15:00
Castleford
v
Catalans
17:30
Leeds
v
Wigan
 Sun 23rd Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R4
15:00
Hull KR
v
Leigh
 Thu 27th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R5
20:00
Castleford
v
Hull FC
 Fri 28th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R5
20:00
Leigh
v
Wakefield
20:00
Warrington
v
Leeds
 Sat 29th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R5
14:30
Wigan
v
Salford
17:30
Catalans
v
St.Helens
 Sun 30th Mar 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R5
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Hull KR
 Thu 10th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R6
20:00
Salford
v
Leeds
 Fri 11th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R6
20:00
Hull KR
v
Wigan
20:00
St.Helens
v
Wakefield
 Sat 12th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R6
17:30
Warrington
v
Hull FC
20:00
Castleford
v
Leigh
 Sun 13th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R6
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Catalans
 Thu 17th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R7
20:00
Wakefield
v
Castleford
 Fri 18th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R7
20:00
Hull FC
v
Hull KR
20:00
Wigan
v
St.Helens
20:00
Leeds
v
Huddersfield
 Sat 19th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R7
20:00
Leigh
v
Warrington
20:00
Catalans
v
Salford
 Thu 24th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R8
20:00
Warrington
v
St.Helens
20:00
Leeds
v
Hull KR
 Fri 25th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R8
20:00
Salford
v
Leigh
 Sat 26th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R8
15:00
Huddersfield
v
Castleford
17:30
Catalans
v
Wakefield
 Sun 27th Apr 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R8
15:00
Hull FC
v
Wigan
 Sat 3rd May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R9
15:00
Leigh
v
Catalans
17:15
Hull KR
v
Salford
19:30
St.Helens
v
Leeds
 Sun 4th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R9
13:00
Huddersfield
v
Hull FC
15:15
Wigan
v
Warrington
17:30
Castleford
v
Wakefield
 Thu 15th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R10
20:00
St.Helens
v
Catalans
 Fri 16th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R10
20:00
Leeds
v
Hull FC
20:00
Wigan
v
Leigh
 Sat 17th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R10
15:00
Hull KR
v
Huddersfield
 Sun 18th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R10
15:00
Wakefield
v
Warrington
17:30
Castleford
v
Salford
 Thu 22nd May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
20:00
Leigh
v
Hull FC
 Fri 23rd May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
20:00
Huddersfield
v
St.Helens
20:00
Warrington
v
Hull KR
 Sat 24th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
14:30
Castleford
v
Leeds
17:30
Catalans
v
Wigan
 Sun 25th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R11
15:00
Wakefield
v
Salford
 Thu 29th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
20:00
Huddersfield
v
Leigh
 Fri 30th May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
20:00
Hull KR
v
St.Helens
20:00
Salford
v
Wigan
 Sat 31st May 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
14:30
Leeds
v
Wakefield
17:30
Catalans
v
Hull FC
 Sun 1st Jun 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R12
15:00
Warrington
v
Castleford
 Fri 13th Jun 2025
     Mens Super League XXX-R13
20:00
Hull FC
v
Castleford
20:00
Hull KR
v
Catalans
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds-Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield-Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Hull KR
Sat 8th Mar
SL
17:30
Catalans-Leeds
Sun 9th Mar
SL
17:30
Warrington-Wakefield
SL
17:30
Wigan-Huddersfield
Thu 20th Mar
SL
20:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Fri 21st Mar
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Warrington
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
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