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Does Johnson even know how many kids he’s got. Although with him being a Tory i should say “does Johnson know how many piglets he’s got”. Pigs & Tories seem to be quite close to one another.

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Quote: The Ghost of '99 "I'll cut the rest of this misinformed (being polite rant) to just mention that we can add an understanding of Polish politics and corruption to the things Sal pontificates on but doesn't actually know about.'"


Are you saying what I said is not true? I would suggest your clueless understanding of anything has once again been exposed for what it is - any kind of basic comprehension and you are the classic oxymoron icon_biggrin.gif

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Quote: Mild Rover "The Conservatives are the party of capital, with a long history of prioritising its interests ahead of labour rights. While the Conservatives have been in government since 2010, their ability to de-regulate the labour market and change workers’ rights has been constrained by EU law. Leaving the EU is why this may start now. The fear (or hope, I suppose) is even greater because the One Nation wing of the party is in retreat and Johnson’s cabinet is further to the economic right than Cameron’s or May’s. However, it will only happen with a democratic mandate - if people vote to keep people like Dominic Raab and JRM in power, then they are willing to accept lighter regulation and different (i’m trying to avoid emotive or overly biased language, but realistically I mean ‘lower’) standards, and that is their choice.

Why would many people, who rely on selling their labour, do that... why might it be a vote winner? Well, that is a question based on the assumption that we live in a democracy. And we do, both legally and to a large extent in reality. But it isn’t a pure democracy - such a thing would be hugely difficult to achieve and maintain. To some degree the UK is a de facto plutocracy. The Conservatives particularly rely on the support of plutocrats to gain and hold power, and therefore tend to prioritise their interests ahead of those of workers.'"


As has been already pointed out the UK could reduce workers rights and still offer better conditions than are available across the EU. I ask again would reducing workers rights lead to more voters backing them? Of course not so why do it - its project fear all over.

Come on without the votes of the working class the Tories cannot get into and stay in power. We have a one person one vote this is not like the Labour party whereby the unions hold all the power. It appears that is the kind of democracy you like i.e. a few telling the majority what to do.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "As has been already pointed out the UK could reduce workers rights and still offer better conditions than are available across the EU. I ask again would reducing workers rights lead to more voters backing them? Of course not so why do it - its project fear all over.

Come on without the votes of the working class the Tories cannot get into and stay in power. We have a one person one vote this is not like the Labour party whereby the unions hold all the power. It appears that is the kind of democracy you like i.e. a few telling the majority what to do.'"


Yeah, that’s kinda the opposite of what I intended to say. I assume your response is deliberate misrepresentation, but let me know if you just misunderstood my point.

We are very fortunate. According to the EIU, we are among the just 4.5% of the world’s population who live in a full democracy, and the UK is ranked the 14th most democratic of 167 countries.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

However, the one person, one vote characterisation is somewhat naive.

the Conservatives won’t call it ‘reducing workers’ rights’, because that clearly wouldn’t win votes, you’re right. It’d be sold as ‘building an agile modern economy’ reflecting the ‘flexibility of today’s workplaces’, ‘allowing Britain to exploit fully opportunities for growth’ or some such. On page 18 of their manifesto, ideally.
Quote: Sal Paradise "As has been already pointed out the UK could reduce workers rights and still offer better conditions than are available across the EU. I ask again would reducing workers rights lead to more voters backing them? Of course not so why do it - its project fear all over.

Come on without the votes of the working class the Tories cannot get into and stay in power. We have a one person one vote this is not like the Labour party whereby the unions hold all the power. It appears that is the kind of democracy you like i.e. a few telling the majority what to do.'"


Yeah, that’s kinda the opposite of what I intended to say. I assume your response is deliberate misrepresentation, but let me know if you just misunderstood my point.

We are very fortunate. According to the EIU, we are among the just 4.5% of the world’s population who live in a full democracy, and the UK is ranked the 14th most democratic of 167 countries.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

However, the one person, one vote characterisation is somewhat naive.

the Conservatives won’t call it ‘reducing workers’ rights’, because that clearly wouldn’t win votes, you’re right. It’d be sold as ‘building an agile modern economy’ reflecting the ‘flexibility of today’s workplaces’, ‘allowing Britain to exploit fully opportunities for growth’ or some such. On page 18 of their manifesto, ideally.


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Quote: Sal Paradise "As has been already pointed out the UK could reduce workers rights and still offer better conditions than are available across the EU. I ask again would reducing workers rights lead to more voters backing them? Of course not so why do it - its project fear all over.

Come on without the votes of the working class the Tories cannot get into and stay in power. We have a one person one vote this is not like the Labour party whereby the unions hold all the power. It appears that is the kind of democracy you like i.e. a few telling the majority what to do.'"


If you are so confident that there will be no reduction in workers rights etc, how do you explain why this was moved from "guaranteed" to "maybe" in the withdrawal agreement.
Surely, a party so committed icon_lol.gif to protecting citizens and workers rights, would want them to be secured in law and yet, your beloved leader chose to move these down the list, quelle surprise.

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The document that was leaked over the weekend, and forced Kwasi Kwarteng to scurry onto the news media to defend, makes this argument moot; workers rights and protections were *deliberately* removed from the legal element of the deal, which makes them fair game in a post-Brexit situation. And anyone who does not see the creeping US style gig economy that we have now as being accelerated by that, is either wilfully dishonest, or thick.

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Quote: bren2k "The document that was leaked over the weekend, and forced Kwasi Kwarteng to scurry onto the news media to defend, makes this argument moot; workers rights and protections were *deliberately* removed from the legal element of the deal, which makes them fair game in a post-Brexit situation. And anyone who does not see the creeping US style gig economy that we have now as being accelerated by that, is either wilfully dishonest, or thick.'"


We still come back to the point of why would any party reduce workers rights - these are the very people they rely on to keep them in power. It makes no sense. The idea was to enable to UK to make its own laws - why everyone is focusing on this is simply to have a go at the Tories over a fictitious threat.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "We still come back to the point of why would any party reduce workers rights - these are the very people they rely on to keep them in power. It makes no sense. The idea was to enable to UK to make its own laws - why everyone is focusing on this is simply to have a go at the Tories over a fictitious threat.'"


Then why remove it from the text that was legally protected?

It has long been said that the more swivel-eyed Brexiteers, of the Rees-Mogg and Francois variety, were interested in a bonfire of regulations; Rees-Mogg is on record as suggesting it in a Treasury Select Committee meeting. Now that the swivel-eyed have taken over the Tory party, it's entirely reasonable to assume that Boris Johnson is being held hostage by their extreme version of Brexit.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "We still come back to the point of why would any party reduce workers rights - these are the very people they rely on to keep them in power. It makes no sense. The idea was to enable to UK to make its own laws - why everyone is focusing on this is simply to have a go at the Tories over a fictitious threat.'"


Do you really think that the average Uber driver or worker in Sports Direct or Amazon warehouses, usually votes Tory ?
There is a move to make our workforce less secure and while it may be easier to move jobs, it will also be equally simple for companies to off load staff. Great, if you are wanting to make your company more profitable but, less good if you have a mortgage or rent to pay.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "Do you really think that the average Uber driver or worker in Sports Direct or Amazon warehouses, usually votes Tory ?
There is a move to make our workforce less secure and while it may be easier to move jobs, it will also be equally simple for companies to off load staff. Great, if you are wanting to make your company more profitable but, less good if you have a mortgage or rent to pay.'"


I think a lot of workers on minimum wage vote Tory - they would get 13m+ votes without them. We still come back to the issue of how do you attract staff - if things are really bad nobody will go there to work - as we have seen with the crop picking - according to labour tonnes of food has been left rotting in the ground because the farmers couldn't get migrant labour - they also couldn't get uk labour either.

Simple solution pay more and that is the reality of most businesses including mine - I have to be competitive or I will not attract the quality of people I need to move my business forward. Its not rocket science.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "I think a lot of workers on minimum wage vote Tory - they would get 13m+ votes without them. We still come back to the issue of how do you attract staff - if things are really bad nobody will go there to work - as we have seen with the crop picking - according to labour tonnes of food has been left rotting in the ground because the farmers couldn't get migrant labour - they also couldn't get uk labour either.

Simple solution pay more and that is the reality of most businesses including mine - I have to be competitive or I will not attract the quality of people I need to move my business forward. Its not rocket science.'"


There’s more to it than just pay though.

Also, if companies can undercut competitors by moving their priorities toward profits and clients, then workers good options are likely to become fewer.

It is a difficult balancing act, because profits and clients are the whole point businesses exist. And in many industries, companies are competing globally.

Unless there is a shortage of labour of the right type, workers rights, conditions, and pay will tend to be squeezed in a capitalist system by competing capitalists. Supply and demand and all that. People like Raab, for example, want that competition to be more aggressive and restraints on the capitalist system to be reduced. My concern, and that of many others, is that will damage people’s quality of life and our society as a whole.

You keep implying they won’t do things that are unpopular with the electorate, but if they can get in off the back of Brexit and a poorly led labour party, then they’re going indulge some of their pet projects - why go into politics if you can’t do some of the things you believe in? And a de-regulated economy, following the model of some Asian countries is exactly the sort of thing our Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary and Minister for International Trade believe in. They even wrote it down in a book, for avoidance of doubt.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19300051

Why would they do it? Because they want to and they can. You and I and most of the rest of the country might agree it is a bad and unpopular idea. However, I don’t agree that democracy is going to protect us from it.
Quote: Sal Paradise "I think a lot of workers on minimum wage vote Tory - they would get 13m+ votes without them. We still come back to the issue of how do you attract staff - if things are really bad nobody will go there to work - as we have seen with the crop picking - according to labour tonnes of food has been left rotting in the ground because the farmers couldn't get migrant labour - they also couldn't get uk labour either.

Simple solution pay more and that is the reality of most businesses including mine - I have to be competitive or I will not attract the quality of people I need to move my business forward. Its not rocket science.'"


There’s more to it than just pay though.

Also, if companies can undercut competitors by moving their priorities toward profits and clients, then workers good options are likely to become fewer.

It is a difficult balancing act, because profits and clients are the whole point businesses exist. And in many industries, companies are competing globally.

Unless there is a shortage of labour of the right type, workers rights, conditions, and pay will tend to be squeezed in a capitalist system by competing capitalists. Supply and demand and all that. People like Raab, for example, want that competition to be more aggressive and restraints on the capitalist system to be reduced. My concern, and that of many others, is that will damage people’s quality of life and our society as a whole.

You keep implying they won’t do things that are unpopular with the electorate, but if they can get in off the back of Brexit and a poorly led labour party, then they’re going indulge some of their pet projects - why go into politics if you can’t do some of the things you believe in? And a de-regulated economy, following the model of some Asian countries is exactly the sort of thing our Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary and Minister for International Trade believe in. They even wrote it down in a book, for avoidance of doubt.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19300051

Why would they do it? Because they want to and they can. You and I and most of the rest of the country might agree it is a bad and unpopular idea. However, I don’t agree that democracy is going to protect us from it.


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Quote: Sal Paradise "I think a lot of workers on minimum wage vote Tory - they would get 13m+ votes without them. We still come back to the issue of how do you attract staff - if things are really bad nobody will go there to work - as we have seen with the crop picking - according to labour tonnes of food has been left rotting in the ground because the farmers couldn't get migrant labour - they also couldn't get uk labour either.

Simple solution pay more and that is the reality of most businesses including mine - I have to be competitive or I will not attract the quality of people I need to move my business forward. Its not rocket science.'"


And ironically, the increase in hourly rates, has brought with it more and more zero hours contracts and in the "delivery" sector, a move to increased numbers of "self employed" drivers, who are in everything but name, agency drivers, serving just one paymaster.
Back in the day, they would have been employed full time on a "proper" contract and entitled to sick pay and paid holidays.

Some of these people like being their own boss but, dont kid yourself that its progress. The same goes for Uber and many of the large employers, who now have a vast array of part time staff, to avoid the expense of NI and sick pay.

So, ask the question about "why" the government would want to lose employees protection from the deal ??

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Quote: wrencat1873 "And ironically, the increase in hourly rates, has brought with it more and more zero hours contracts and in the "delivery" sector, a move to increased numbers of "self employed" drivers, who are in everything but name, agency drivers, serving just one paymaster.
Back in the day, they would have been employed full time on a "proper" contract and entitled to sick pay and paid holidays.

Some of these people like being their own boss but, dont kid yourself that its progress. The same goes for Uber and many of the large employers, who now have a vast array of part time staff, to avoid the expense of NI and sick pay.

So, ask the question about "why" the government would want to lose employees protection from the deal ??'"


I would never employ anyone on a zero hours contract - I don't think it is correct but it does suit some people. I need take Uber prefer Amber in Leeds although I think they are pretty much self employed.

I employ 170 drivers none on zero hour contracts I do have a big demand from self-employed drivers and lose drivers to it - IR35 will put a stop to that.

Employee protection was part of a whole raft of items that moved from the EU control to the UK Parliament as part of Boris' WA - Labour just highlighted it as an easy target - when they have no evidence whatsoever that the Tories will do anything and there is no evidence to base it on. Just Labour grasping at straws - project fear.

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Quote: Sal Paradise "We still come back to the point of why would any party reduce workers rights - '"

Because these are the sorts of socialist interventions into the free market which you have been warning us about? I'd have thought you'd be manning the barricades to get rid of them; or does your forceful bluster about Marxism and Socialism waver when it comes to actual details?

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Boris Johnson said he’d rather be dead in a ditch than extend the Brexit deadline beyond 31st October

Once again he’s been shown to be a proven liar, you can’t trust a single word he says

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13:00
Leigh
v
Salford
15:30
Catalans
v
Hull KR
18:00
Huddersfield
v
Castleford
 Sun 27th Oct 2024
     Mens Internationals 2024-R2
14:30
England M
v
Samoa M
 Sat 2nd Nov 2024
     Mens Internationals 2024-R3
14:30
England M
v
Samoa M
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Fri 12th Jul
SL
20:00
LondonB-Castleford
WSL2024
17:30
WiganW-St.HelensW
SL
20:00
Wigan-St.Helens
Sat 13th Jul
SL
15:00
Hull FC-Hull KR
SL
15:00
Leigh-Huddersfield
SL
17:30
Catalans-Salford
Wed 17th Jul
SOO
11:05
Queensland-New South Wales
Sat 17th Aug
SL
18:00
Warrington-Leeds
SL
15:30
Wigan-St.Helens
SL
13:00
Hull FC-LondonB
Sun 18th Aug
SL
13:00
Leigh-Salford
SL
15:30
Catalans-Hull KR
SL
18:00
Huddersfield-Castleford
Sun 27th Oct
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sat 2nd Nov
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Thu 11th Jul
NRL 19 Dolphins36-28Souths
SL 17 Warrington30-18Leeds
Sun 7th Jul
NRL 18 Sydney42-12St.George
NRL 18 Canberra12-16Newcastle
SL 16 Salford22-20Hull FC
CH 14 Dewsbury16-20Doncaster
CH 14 Featherstone66-0Whitehaven
CH 14 Swinton24-12Widnes
CH 14 Wakefield34-12Batley
CH 14 York54-12Barrow
L1 14 Newcastle0-44Workington
L1 14 Crusaders18-32Midlands
L1 14 Keighley20-20Rochdale
WSL2024 7 Wire W10-32Hudds W
WSL2024 7 York V44-0BarrowW
Sat 6th Jul
NRL 18 Canterbury13-12NZ Warriors
NRL 18 Wests28-40Melbourne
NRL 18 NQL Cowboys20-22Manly
SL 16 Hull KR14-16Catalans
SL 16 Leeds17-16LondonB
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 15 427 170 257 26
Warrington 17 436 231 205 24
St.Helens 16 429 170 259 22
Hull KR 16 397 217 180 22
Salford 16 317 308 9 22
Catalans 16 304 234 70 20
 
Leeds 17 309 316 -7 18
Huddersfield 16 298 365 -67 12
Leigh 15 270 250 20 11
Castleford 16 246 435 -189 9
Hull FC 16 218 496 -278 4
LondonB 16 156 615 -459 2
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 14 520 154 366 28
Sheffield 14 382 217 165 22
Bradford 14 353 230 123 19
Toulouse 13 344 186 158 17
Widnes 14 327 269 58 15
Featherstone 14 396 283 113 14
 
Doncaster 14 257 341 -84 13
York 15 339 305 34 12
Batley 14 217 320 -103 12
Swinton 14 284 344 -60 10
Halifax 14 270 405 -135 10
Whitehaven 14 266 424 -158 10
Barrow 13 215 393 -178 10
Dewsbury 15 184 439 -255 2
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