Bury would be a good model for a town looking into how to develop a thriving town centre, a hugely successful market and still have strong supermarket presence.

Within the town centre we have two shopping areasMillgate Centrerl and the new and impressive development on rlThe Rockrl, with a cinema complex, ten-pin bowling, numerous eateries all in a surprisingly compact area. Both are within 30 seconds walk of one another - almost adjoining. Between them they have all the big high street names, a number of independents, and large Debenhams and Marks & Spencer department stores.

Backing onto and adjoining Millgate is the rl'World Famous' Bury Marketrl, with an large indoor market, a superb fish and meat hall and an enormous outdoor market 3 days a week. Wednesday, Friday and Saturday sees dozens of coaches ship people in from all over to assault the market.

Just over the road from the market is a retail park with around 12 large outlets (PC World, TK Maxx, Argos, etc), and within a minute's walk is an Asda superstore. Walk the other way and there's another retail park with several large outlets such as Boots, Next, JD Sport, and a massive Tesco. There's also another, much bigger Asda within a mile or two. All are busy.

The bars, restaurants and cafes are thriving and most of the shops are doing well. Of course not all are a success and we've seen several more traditional pubs fail (generally those that haven't developed in 20 years), and a few shops, but most are doing well. There are now several excellent festivals through the year which attract many thousands of people.

Bury is far from an affluent town and has bigger towns and Manchester nearby, but they're doing something right.

However consumers prefer this "one shop sells all" model (at the moment) because they attach a cost to the time spent searching for products, which is obviously lower either if you can buy everything at Tescos or order everything online from amazon.

I say "at the moment" though, because once these firms gain market power then they will be able to extract higher prices out of the consumer without the consumer having anywhere else to go. In fairness it will be hard for amazon to do this completely as costs of start up on the internet are comparably low so there will always be threats to amazon, but in terms of physical space it will be harder to enter the market to challenge big stores like Tescos.

Your post says it all, over the road, round the corner, a mile away, short walk.

From the last time I was there I remember everything being in the centre or close to it, plenty of cheap parking and a council that realises what a huge asset they have with the market and actively promote it, don't flood the commodities on sale and keep rents reasonable.

Sadly many councils frighten off shoppers with poor, over priced parking, scare off new traders with insane rents and pander to the big multiples in the search for the holy grail of "Cafe Culture" and identikit shopping malls.

That's not to say traders are innocent in their downfall, I've met lots on intransigent traders who refuse or plain can't adapt to survive or were just plain poor, anyone who's local butcher was bought out by Dewhursts will testify that there were anything but a master butcher for instance. You can't blame people for turning to supermarkets and out of town developments.

Yes, parking is a big thing. Widnes has always had free parking and the council have reaped benefits. People go to shop in Widnes from surrounding towns partly as a result of the parking and partly following redevolpment a few years back of the town centre with a new market next door to Morrisons and a very small covered"mall." More recently an Asda opened and more recently a big Tesco (not doing too well from what I gather). Aldi across the road too. So, a council trying to attract businesses rather than extract revenue through parking costs can reinvigorate a town centre (albeit in a different form to the past). Widnes even attracted a small M&S and BHS - stores which traditionally had steered well clear.

Spot on. And Bury has loads of parking at reasonable prices (though many locals still fondly recall the days of free town centre parking - not actually that long ago!).

The market continues to thrive and has developed further in recent years with several cafes popping up and creating a plaza area with plenty of outdoor seating. It's not very exotic but it's pleasant, and with outdoor heaters it's year round.

The 2 main shopping areas, the 2-3 retail parks, the supermarkets, the bars, cafes and restaurants, the local schools and colleges, the local sports centre, the East Lancs Railway - everything is in a relatively small area and within easy walking distance, with the Metrolink and bus station also in the town centre, and all have ample parking.

Anyone who still naively clings to the idea that supermarkets are interested in offering choice and value to customers could do worae than read Joana Blythman's book rlShopped

Parking in Leeds City Centre, particularly shoppers parking was an issue that was being discussed on local radio just yesterday by a representative of independant retaillers in the city who made the point that there is no such thing as "casual shopping" in the city centre these days, and as a kid in the 1960s who spent every bloody saturday afternoon being dragged around and around the city centre by his mother I knew exactly what the spokesman meant.

The point being made was that you only went into the centre if you absolutely needed something that you couldn't get elsewhere and you only went for that specific item because the cost of parking your car and more importantly the cost of being fined if you overstay your welcome is extortionate - the spokesman made a very good point in that we have a council who publically promise a "vibrant" city centre and boast of a "wonderful" collection of retaillers, and then do their best to drive away car drivers by employing street wardens who issue disproportionate penalties if you stay for five minutes too long in a parking bay, what they were calling for was a system of fair charging for exceeding time limits in on-street and pre-pay car parks, possibly just double what you should have paid rather than ten or twenty times - but of course that will never happen.

In many cases, consumers have little choice in the matter, since local shops were destroyed years ago – so in many cases, younger consumers in particular have never had much of an alternative to the big shops/chains.

I just recently did an interview with rla butcher on my nearest shopping streetrl – he's been there for 53 years and the last there from a completely different era. He remembers the days when there were eight butchers, three (proper) bakers and at least three wet fish shops/stalls. Plus a small Tesco.

The demise started when Tesco began opening the really big stores. Before that, there'd been a place for everyone. Henry's story bears out what other people have told me over the years.

When we moved into the area 17 years ago, the street was 3/4 derelict and there was no meaningful choice for shopping. You went to one of the many Tescos scattered around – or one of the many Sainsbury's scattered around; both of which have continued to spread.

That's not choice.

The choice has only increased in the last nine years since the area started trendifying and a Saturday market started on the street, while a number of cafes and bars and independent shops opened. Now, I have a genuine choice. I can shop up there – and not just on a Saturday – or I can go to one of the dozens of Tescos or Sainsbury's.

Now, as a downside, rents are rising insanely.

Parking has been raised an an issue for many streets – not only do councils charge to park, supermarkets can get away with building huge carparks and offering free parking; and there needs to be rent control (commercial and residential). And see the book that Coddy suggets – it's good. As is the Charles Fishman I've mentioned already.

"destoyed" by whom?

The village I was brought up in used to have a News Agent, Green Grocer, General Grocer, Beer/Wine merchant, Butcher, local Bank branch, Bakery, Wet Fish shop all on the main street. It now has a Cafe, a McColl's generic (and overpriced) supermarket, a Physiotherapist, a Hat Shop, a "Boutique" that sells all manner of expensive rubbish that nobody wants to buy and not a lot else. The Butcher has remained, he's blooy expensive but he's also VERY good.

It's no surprise to me (and probably nobody else either) that the people who owned the plethora of shops in the village all cashed in on the property values in the 90's and have since (with one exception I know of) shuffled off this mortal coil. People want an easy life, even in their careers, I can't see anyone getting up at 4am to go to the market to buy produce to then sell in their own shop from 8am to 7pm (in fact, I wouldn't even know where the nearest wholesalers is now, and that was thanks to a Labour government in Hull, so people can't start blaming the Tories as they usually do).

Is any of that the fault of Tesco/Wal Mart/Sainsbury et al?

What also intrigues me is a local "Farm Shop" close to where I live now sells all manner of stuff at a serious mark up, the place is rammed most afternoons and it just isn't worth going at a weekend, about 5% of the produce is actually locally produced, the rest is bought in, some of it from Waitrose/Ocado (we bought some stuff the other week that had been carefully re-wrapped in the "**** Farm Shop" packaging, but they hadn't removed the inside wrapping with the famous green Waitrose label on it), so people will obviously pay for "quality", when I was in Acton their was an "artisan" bread shop knocking out loaves at £4 to £7 each, yes it was better than sliced white, but it wasn't [ithat[/i good.

The whole retail sector is going to implode and find a new base level, unfortunately there are going to be many thousands of casualties (jobs wise) along the way.

A supermarket only needs to take 30% of the trade and the small independents won't be able to afford to continue trading.
Hence, they may have "earned" 30% of the trade but the other 70% is gained despite people wanting to shop elsewhere.
Many people are happy to go along with whatever the supermarkets say is "choice" but, for me, choice is not an aisle full of differently-labelled bottles of water or the same spuds in larger or smaller bags or racks and racks of Chorleywood process bread.
I'd far rather have a butcher who can tell me the exact provenance of the meat he sells, rather than a supermarket who buy in such quantity that they can't keep track of what species is in their burgers.

it's time you changed the record, it really is boring.

Is my argument incorrect?
Or are you bored by your inability to refute it?

As the butcher I talked to, who had survived, said, it was when the supermarkets started expanding into much bigger stores. When there had been a small Tesco (in the days when Jack Cohen was still alive), everything had coexisted.

The street was 3/4 dead 17 and a half years ago when we first got to know it, and apparently had been for some time.



This is interesting. There are young businesses that I'm seeing where people clearly are putting the hours in – and also where they're adjusting to a more Continental model of independent retail to cater to modern consumers more

As I've mentioned before, Charles Fishman's [iThe Wal-Mart Effect[/i illustrates how the constant drive to push prices down further and then further again reduces quality and loses jobs. Supermarkets can have a negative impact on areas, and this is one way – as El Barbudo notes.

I haven't quoted it, but you also make a point about the quality butcher costing more. I think it's interesting that, generally, people in the UK spend 10% less of their income on food than anywhere else in Europe (figure via Joanna Blythman), yet you'll hear constant complaints that food is too expensive.

I think that there are a number of issues here – one being the very much higher costs of housing in the UK than elsewhere in Europe – but also perhaps a general sense of food as being something that we don't value any more than fuel. Or perhaps it's partly that a lot of what is bought widely is expensive if you factor in its poor quality.

And there's also the point that there's been a very effective con in terms of convincing people that 'convenience' food is cheap, when it's far from it. Just one simple example: small tin of sliced carrot costs 57p in a general store/supermarket, with salt and sugar added. Two carrots – bought in an organic shop, so they're 'premium' – cost 30p and there's far more of them than what's in the tin. Takes 90 second to peel and slice (and I'm not cheffy fast) and then 10 minutes in a pan.

Doesn't surprise me at all.

And not those particularly, but there a lot of those sort of products, from a variety of supermarkets, that include loads of additives and crazy ingredients – one of my 'favourites' was pectin in a "finest" Tesco Lancashire hot pot.



There's an extent to which they create the demand, though. Again, the Blythman book is good on this sort of stuff. But when you get into the realms of stores employing psychologists to design stores and displays etc, you're into something that goes beyond offering a choice and then just responding to what the customers buy.

It's slightly off topi (ie away from grocery retail), but I had a few hours in Manchester one Sunday morning a year or so ago, and went for a nostalgic wander around the Arndale. Well, not so much nostalgia, since it had been rebuilt. But the thing that struck me most forcefully – perhaps because I just don't go to such shopping centres except in very rare circumstances – was the music.

Apart from the Waterstones and the Games Workshop, every retail outlet had pounding music blasting out of the doors. Even the Disney shop had music pounding out – okay, rather Disneyfied, but still with a very strong rhythm/bass line. And it struck me to wonder why this is such a universal. Does a strong bass raise the heartbeat and increase probability of a spend? I don't claim to know the answer, but why would everywhere, from clothing to high-end electronics to toys use the same approach?

I don't think that the relationship between such shops/stores and the customer is anywhere near as evenly balanced as some people seem to think it is.



Things have certainly changed – and not all for the worst. But it's still possible to shop, in essence, just once a week. Unless you really have masses of space in the freezer and can shop once a month and freeze everything, most people will still have to do a weekly shop. I manage that – without a car – and there's usually not much that I need to pick up (if at all) between weekends. If I'm off work, I might do it differently, but that's the norm.

And as I said, there are young businesses that are opening differently to cater for people who work, being able to pick up something on the way home from work – very much as you'll see in somewhere like Paris.

Just to reiterate, there is a place for supermarkets (as that interview with the butcher illustrates, they can co-exist with independents)

I'd not disagree with a lot of what you say there. However, it's difficult to conclude that, if not created from scratch, then it was certainly boosted (for want of a better phrase). Decisions were taken to change the nature of the national economy, and increasing retail was a major part of that. Disposable income didn't massively increase at the same time, so specific decisions were made to change the culture to include cheap credit. Similarly, with housing, there were very specific political decisions taken to move people into home ownership rather than rent and, most particularly, away from council housing. Even decisions such as scrapping the Sunday trading laws – on the publicised grounds that it was stuopid that you could buy porn on a Sunday but not a [iBible[/i. In retrospect, it can be seen that that was a massive boost to big retail.