Councils do not set business rates nor do they get the money from them, that is down to HM Gov, they also set what services businesses get for their rates.

Oh and who has just put up business rates, again?

Bradford, Leeds and a few other places have done well to keep their really very good markets, I would bet that the same products are available in all those big supermarkets and a limited selection in the others, having 7 different places to buy your Warburtons bread isn't really a choice.

It, along with a few notable towns and cities had a decent starting point, Leeds and Bradford both have fantastic markets, what many towns had was "The Master Butcher" the fruit and veg shop where the produce was delivered once a week on a Saturday morning and the chain fresh fish shop, supermarkets were wonderful places compared to them.

Thats not to say that independents can't beat supermarkets on quality and availability if they are allowed to what happens is supermarkets drop prices to get rid of the competition. Spending time in Inverness shows just how much of a grip Tesco have, the have three massive supermarkets, own three more sites and spend millions blocking others moving into the area. That isn't competition, that isn't choice.

But having 50 types of bread in one place is choice!!

Absolutely agree re strawberries in December. Like HMV if you do not adapt to changes market conditions you will die. You cannot blame the supermarkets if the independents cannot supply a compelling model which is sufficiently tempting to attract enough customers to keep them going. Perhaps if the butcher, baker and fruit and veg all got together so you could get all your fresh stuff in one place and the rest at the supermarket? They would need to ensure there was somewhere to park that didn't cost £5/6 every time etc.

Tesco certainly like to offer choice - choice of 'meats' in their "beef" burgers. Indeed, up to 29% horse 'meat' and a bit of pig 'meat' etc, allegedly: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Tesco.html

Tesco certainly like to offer choice - choice of 'meats' in their "beef" burgers. Indeed, up to 29% horse 'meat' and a bit of pig 'meat' etc, allegedly: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Tesco.html

Have a real look at what those 50 "types" really are, the same dough in a multitude of shapes and sizes. Many produced by one manufacturer in one plant but packed in several different branded packaging, you are confusing abundance with choice. Much of the good stuff they do sell is produced to a price, dumbed down so it doesn't really taste that much different to anything else and a pale reflection of what it should be, step forward "French" bread...

Leeds Market has been clinging to the cliff face of ruination for several years now due mainly to the council charging more and more for rents in as perfect a demonstration of strangling the golden goose as you'll ever find, its a shadow of what it used to be when I was a kid and would be dragged through it every Saturday on the way to the bus station.

The strange thing about mass production of bread by the likes of Allied Bakers is that they've all but destroyed their own market, my bro-in-law worked at their bakery in Gateshead for a couple of decades until last year when those premises closed and production was moved to Glasgow in an effort to streamline their operations across the whole of northern england and scotland - Glasgow now services the tip of Scotland down to Yorkshire/Lancs with Gateshead being just a distribution warehouse, simply because all of the supermarkets that they used to service couldn't force their prices down anymore and took to "baking" pre-prepared dough instore, for five years before the closure my bro-in-law was seeing each of their supermarket customers closing accounts one at a time and only taking on a few branded breads, the staple breads being "produced" instore.

I was only talking about these issues on the bus yesterday morning. Eveything is back to front in this country. Property costs are too high for business to flourish and business rates, etc are counter-productive as is employers NI. We should try to move to a system where such fixed overheads are reduced dramatically. That would allow strong businesses to make much larger profits and maybe expand abroad and allow currently marginal business to survive or flourish and therefore boost employment. Taxes should be raised only 3 ways:

1. VAT
2. Higher rates of corporation tax (on the higher profits that would be generated)
3. Income tax at much higher rates than now (doing away with NI and the capital taxes).

Basically, move to a system that supports employment, supports profitability and creates an ability to pay taxes.

I recall when corporation tax rates were 52% and ironically everyone seemed to make more money than now. Directors of companies did not mind spending, employing, etc because it only cost them less than half of the bill / salary.

Fromthe same doughs made by the big "bakers" in reality your white sliced and your "farmhouse" loaf come from the same plant, the same basic ingredients and the same end taste albeit one lasts longer that the other.

Bury would be a good model for a town looking into how to develop a thriving town centre, a hugely successful market and still have strong supermarket presence.

Within the town centre we have two shopping areasMillgate Centrerl and the new and impressive development on rlThe Rockrl, with a cinema complex, ten-pin bowling, numerous eateries all in a surprisingly compact area. Both are within 30 seconds walk of one another - almost adjoining. Between them they have all the big high street names, a number of independents, and large Debenhams and Marks & Spencer department stores.

Backing onto and adjoining Millgate is the rl'World Famous' Bury Marketrl, with an large indoor market, a superb fish and meat hall and an enormous outdoor market 3 days a week. Wednesday, Friday and Saturday sees dozens of coaches ship people in from all over to assault the market.

Just over the road from the market is a retail park with around 12 large outlets (PC World, TK Maxx, Argos, etc), and within a minute's walk is an Asda superstore. Walk the other way and there's another retail park with several large outlets such as Boots, Next, JD Sport, and a massive Tesco. There's also another, much bigger Asda within a mile or two. All are busy.

The bars, restaurants and cafes are thriving and most of the shops are doing well. Of course not all are a success and we've seen several more traditional pubs fail (generally those that haven't developed in 20 years), and a few shops, but most are doing well. There are now several excellent festivals through the year which attract many thousands of people.

Bury is far from an affluent town and has bigger towns and Manchester nearby, but they're doing something right.

However consumers prefer this "one shop sells all" model (at the moment) because they attach a cost to the time spent searching for products, which is obviously lower either if you can buy everything at Tescos or order everything online from amazon.

I say "at the moment" though, because once these firms gain market power then they will be able to extract higher prices out of the consumer without the consumer having anywhere else to go. In fairness it will be hard for amazon to do this completely as costs of start up on the internet are comparably low so there will always be threats to amazon, but in terms of physical space it will be harder to enter the market to challenge big stores like Tescos.

Your post says it all, over the road, round the corner, a mile away, short walk.

From the last time I was there I remember everything being in the centre or close to it, plenty of cheap parking and a council that realises what a huge asset they have with the market and actively promote it, don't flood the commodities on sale and keep rents reasonable.

Sadly many councils frighten off shoppers with poor, over priced parking, scare off new traders with insane rents and pander to the big multiples in the search for the holy grail of "Cafe Culture" and identikit shopping malls.

That's not to say traders are innocent in their downfall, I've met lots on intransigent traders who refuse or plain can't adapt to survive or were just plain poor, anyone who's local butcher was bought out by Dewhursts will testify that there were anything but a master butcher for instance. You can't blame people for turning to supermarkets and out of town developments.

Yes, parking is a big thing. Widnes has always had free parking and the council have reaped benefits. People go to shop in Widnes from surrounding towns partly as a result of the parking and partly following redevolpment a few years back of the town centre with a new market next door to Morrisons and a very small covered"mall." More recently an Asda opened and more recently a big Tesco (not doing too well from what I gather). Aldi across the road too. So, a council trying to attract businesses rather than extract revenue through parking costs can reinvigorate a town centre (albeit in a different form to the past). Widnes even attracted a small M&S and BHS - stores which traditionally had steered well clear.