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| Quote ="Superblue"Following the referendum many of the leave voters then became aware of the hard Brexit possibility that gobsmacked them.
At the following general election these same voters effectively returned a tranche of remain mp’s to indicate their revised views.
Parliament is now acting in accordance with the voters wishes.
Totally democratic
So easy to grasp.'"
nope,we had a referendum, we voted leave.
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| Quote ="IR80"nope,we had a referendum, we voted leave.'"
A referendum isn’t legally binding.
The Supreme Court ordered that Parliament and not the Tory government had authority on Brexit.
The voters understood this.
So why did the voters not return a leave parliament when given the chance in the general election.?
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| Quote ="Superblue"A referendum isn’t legally binding.
The Supreme Court ordered that Parliament and not the Tory government had authority on Brexit.
The voters understood this.
So why did the voters not return a leave parliament when given the chance in the general election.?'"
because the intelligent voters know a General Election isn't a single issue democracy. I assume you are a remoaner.
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| Quote ="Superblue"Following the referendum many of the leave voters then became aware of the hard Brexit possibility that gobsmacked them.
At the following general election these same voters effectively returned a tranche of remain mp’s to indicate their revised views.
Parliament is now acting in accordance with the voters wishes.
Totally democratic
So easy to grasp.'"
They returned MPs who said they'd respect and implement the referendum result.
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| Quote ="Superblue"A referendum isn’t legally binding.
The Supreme Court ordered that Parliament and not the Tory government had authority on Brexit.
The voters understood this.
So why did the voters not return a leave parliament when given the chance in the general election.?'"
Cameron categorically declared it would be implemented (thereby removing the 'advisory' tag).
Voters did return a leave parliament - Labour and Tories picked up the overwhelming majority of votes on leave manifestos.
The referendum's 'project fear campaign' made it clear that any Brexit would be what was subsequently called a 'hard' Brexit.
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| Quote ="bren2k"There are already strong rumours that she's had a series of 1:1 telephone meetings with Johnson - and I don't think her desire to be back in the big time should be underestimated; as a Minister in the coalition govt, she voted for Tory austerity policies more times than a significant number of actual Tories did - over 800 times in fact. She is a yellow Tory, who represents the maintenance of the status quo, but with 5p carrier bags to ameliorate the conscience.
As for Corbyn being unclear - you trot this out repeatedly, so I can only assume you're listening to the media rather than him; take no deal off the table, extend the deadline, hold a GE, negotiate a softer exit with the EU, put it to the people - including an option to Remain. It couldn't be simpler.'"
Sorry Bren but, although nobody would wish to see it, I'll show my booty in Wakefield precinct if The Lib dems go into coalition with the Tories.
The previous coalition was long before Brexit and whatever similarities the 2 parties may have had in 2010 have long since disappeared, not to mention the utter damage that jumping into bed with Cameron actually did for their Party.
As for Corbyn. He and the Labour party have spent so long on the fence, that the undergrowth will now prevent them moving at all.
Even with the sequence of events that you describe and assuming that Labour can win an election, which I very much doubt (and certainly not with an overall majority), just how long do you think that the process would take and do you think that the electorate would be happy with soft (remain) Brexit.
Personally, I would have been very happy with that option from the outset but, there was a vote to leave and why should anyone be happy with a second "referendum". If the result were "remain" Farage & Co would no doubt insist on another vote.
You say that Labours stance is "clear" but, what happens if the Tories or worse still, The Brexit party gain power (or a share of it).
Remember, Labour are 12/13 points behind the broken shambles of the Conservatives.
I've said for years that Labour wont win an election with Corbyn at the helm and just like my views on Brexit, nobody has changed my mind on this one.
He is loved by his closest allies but, despised by the majority of the rest.
The best that Labour could hope for is a coalition with the SNP and / or the Libdems and even that is not a certainty
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| I can't see the circumstances in which we ever leave.
The EU has us over a barrel, and will "stick" to the deal already negotiated. Why wouldn't they? They don't want us to leave, and must be laughing their male hens off at the ensuing shambles.
I can't see ANY way in which any Parliament would be elected that would have a majority for either a hard Brexit, or for accepting this deal.
I can't see any way in which a second referendum would vote leave, but if I am wrong about that, then I certainly can't see a majority for "leave regardless" - any majority would IMHO certainly only ever be to leave with a deal.
And so to keep us in the EU, all Eu needs to do is refuse to negotiate any further. Leaving us nowhere to go.
What a mess.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Sorry Bren but, although nobody would wish to see it, I'll show my booty in Wakefield precinct if The Lib dems go into coalition with the Tories.
The previous coalition was long before Brexit and whatever similarities the 2 parties may have had in 2010 have long since disappeared, not to mention the utter damage that jumping into bed with Cameron actually did for their Party.
As for Corbyn. He and the Labour party have spent so long on the fence, that the undergrowth will now prevent them moving at all.
Even with the sequence of events that you describe and assuming that Labour can win an election, which I very much doubt (and certainly not with an overall majority), just how long do you think that the process would take and do you think that the electorate would be happy with soft (remain) Brexit.
Personally, I would have been very happy with that option from the outset but, there was a vote to leave and why should anyone be happy with a second "referendum". If the result were "remain" Farage & Co would no doubt insist on another vote.
You say that Labours stance is "clear" but, what happens if the Tories or worse still, The Brexit party gain power (or a share of it).
Remember, Labour are 12/13 points behind the broken shambles of the Conservatives.
I've said for years that Labour wont win an election with Corbyn at the helm and just like my views on Brexit, nobody has changed my mind on this one.
He is loved by his closest allies but, despised by the majority of the rest.
The best that Labour could hope for is a coalition with the SNP and / or the Libdems and even that is not a certainty'"
Labours stance is very clear.
Lib Dem’s would only join a coalition with Tory’s, the amount of people who thing lab/lib would ever join in a coalition is laughable.
The sun/mail control the narrative and are superb at it, I agree with you about Labour with Corbyn at the helm. If I was a Brexiteer he’s the only person I’d trust to do it.
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| Quote ="Sheldon"Labours stance is very clear.
Lib Dem’s would only join a coalition with Tory’s, the amount of people who thing lab/lib would ever join in a coalition is laughable.
The sun/mail control the narrative and are superb at it, I agree with you about Labour with Corbyn at the helm. If I was a Brexiteer he’s the only person I’d trust to do it.'"
You say that Labours stance is very clear, which I believe is Leave with a deal, including "A customs union".
Much as this seems to be the middle ground, do you believe this would make it through Parliament and would it actually be "leaving" (as we would still be tied to the EU and making contributions, albeit at a lower level than we currently do).
Corbyn, although happy to bang the Euro drum about workers rights ets, is a lifelong Eurosceptic and ironically, their own policy doesnt pass it's own 6 tests for leaving the EU ??
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"You say that Labours stance is very clear, which I believe is Leave with a deal, including "A customs union".
Much as this seems to be the middle ground, do you believe this would make it through Parliament and would it actually be "leaving" (as we would still be tied to the EU and making contributions, albeit at a lower level than we currently do).
Corbyn, although happy to bang the Euro drum about workers rights ets, is a lifelong Eurosceptic and ironically, their own policy doesnt pass it's own 6 tests for leaving the EU ??'"
The big problem is that neither can put one upmanship and politics aside and make a decision that is actually good for THE COUNTRY, it looks increasingly like we will end up with a GE, another coalition that can't really do much and the same ineffective politics we have had for 20 years.
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| Quote ="IR80"icon_arrow.gif The big problem is that neither can put one upmanship and politics aside and make a decision that is actually good for THE COUNTRY, it looks increasingly like we will end up with a GE, another coalition that can't really do much and the same ineffective politics we have had for 20 years.'"
I would suggest those honourable Tories (oxymoron alert) are doing exactly that. The reason that we are in this pickle is one side sees the obvious economic & social advantages of EU membership, the other side are a bunch of racists & xenophobes who still think the UK is a superior nation.
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| Quote ="tigertot"I would suggest those honourable Tories (oxymoron alert) are doing exactly that. The reason that we are in this pickle is one side sees the obvious economic & social advantages of EU membership, the other side are a bunch of racists & xenophobes who still think the UK is a superior nation.'"
The referendum result was to leave, it is a simple fact. (I voted remain, but democracy requires that we leave), Labour were clamouring for a GE, they could have one, but know they will never win with the Geography Teacher at the helm.
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| Quote ="IR80"The referendum result was to leave, it is a simple fact. (I voted remain, but democracy requires that we leave), Labour were clamouring for a GE, they could have one, but know they will never win with the Geography Teacher at the helm.'"
But you said politicians can't make a decision for the good of the country. Not wanting to commit suicide, I would suggest, could be construed as beneficial.
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| Quote ="tigertot"But you said politicians can't make a decision for the good of the country. Not wanting to commit suicide, I would suggest, could be construed as beneficial.'"
In your oppinion, not the majority of those that voted. As I say, I voted remain, but my countrymen and women voted leave. If we were to stay then the EU would meddle evn more. I don't see a positive outcome either way.
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| HOw do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more? That is just typical Mail/Sun/Express language.
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| Quote ="tigertot"HOw do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more? That is just typical Mail/Sun/Express language.'"
You keep trotting out the Mail, Express, Sun garbage, I read none of them. Out of interest, which sector do you work in, how much unnecessary beaurocracy do you come across?
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| Quote ="tigertot"I would suggest those honourable Tories (oxymoron alert) are doing exactly that. The reason that we are in this pickle is one side sees the obvious economic & social advantages of EU membership, the other side are a bunch of racists & xenophobes who still think the UK is a superior nation.'"
One side is trying to deliver the mandate they asked the country to give them. The other has a very fluid policy depending on which day it is.
They all seem very certain that another referendum will deliver a remain vote - what happens if it delivers another leave vote?
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| Quote ="IR80"You keep trotting out the Mail, Express, Sun garbage, I read none of them. Out of interest, which sector do you work in, how much unnecessary beaurocracy do you come across?'"
Answer my questions & I will answer yours. How do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more?
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"
They all seem very certain that another referendum will deliver a remain vote - what happens if it delivers another leave vote?'"
Without doubt we would have to leave. Assuming the options were clear. I have not come across anyone saying different.
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| Quote ="tigertot"Answer my questions & I will answer yours. How do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more?'"
You have no experience of dealing with EU bearocracy, that is clear. You are all for attempting to belittle peopls and attempt, in vain, to "call them out", the truth is you are a died in the wool socialist, you don't believe in democracy.
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| Quote ="IR80"You have no experience of dealing with EU bearocracy, that is clear. You are all for attempting to belittle peopls and attempt, in vain, to "call them out", the truth is you are a died in the wool socialist, you don't believe in democracy.'"
I obtain & spend EU funding. Millions. My brother worked for the EU for many years; he still does occasionally. His wife still does. My nephew is working on Brexit very close to the heart of Government. I have voted Labour once in a GE in the last 30 years. That was tactical to kick out the Tory scummer. It worked.
So tell me, How do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more?
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| Quote ="tigertot"I obtain & spend EU funding. Millions. My brother worked for the EU for many years; he still does occasionally. His wife still does. My nephew is working on Brexit very close to the heart of Government. I have voted Labour once in a GE in the last 30 years. That was tactical to kick out the Tory scummer. It worked.
So tell me, How do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more?'"
Strange how i don't believe a single word of that. I'll leave you to your fantasy world Mr Mitty.
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| Quote ="IR80"icon_wink.gif Strange how i don't believe a single word of that. I'll leave you to your fantasy world Mr Mitty.'"
I appreciate you believe that only people who went to Eton & Oxbridge deserve to get on in life, & your lot is to live in a hovel on Preston Road surviving off fish scraps from Hull docks; but you really can aspire to more.
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| Quote ="tigertot"I appreciate you believe that only people who went to Eton & Oxbridge deserve to get on in life, & your lot is to live in a hovel on Preston Road surviving off fish scraps from Hull docks; but you really can aspire to more.'"
Oh dear, the sad bitter side of you is seeping out, bless.
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| It seems to me that the Boris method of leading with "no deal to get a good deal" is the only sensible way forward against the intransigent burghers of Brussels. It is just a pity that ever since the 2016 referendum certain powers have been at work to scupper the result. Certain MPs & members of elite society have completely side lined the popular vote to look towards the EU
as being in their own best interest in terms of better pay for their personal coffers & possible future jobs to be had within the EU conglomerate.
As for Corbyn ,he has more faces than the town hall clock.
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