| FORUMS > The Sin Bin > HS2 rail link |
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| Quote: "I would suggest 1 mile of railway would cost less to build than 1 mile of motorway, dual carriageway or even trunk road. It would probably be more environmentally friendly and use less land. When in use , using modern technology it would be more efficient and cost effective moving people and allowing goods to be moved quicker.'"
Have you modelled the movement of people and goods? What goods do you refer to and what % of goods movement nationally does it constitute??
Surely Transport needs to be look at holistically. Trainline development may be cheaper but it is limited in where it goes and how many passengers and tonnes of goods it transports. Similaly cycle lanes, paths, bus routes... |
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| Quote: Leaguefan "I would suggest 1 mile of railway would cost less to build than 1 mile of motorway, dual carriageway or even trunk road. It would probably be more environmentally friendly and use less land. When in use , using modern technology it would be more efficient and cost effective moving people and allowing goods to be moved quicker.
It would benefit EVERYONE in the same way roads do.
The fact this is not the case is down to short termism, ignorance, nimbys and political dogma. Perhaps if motorists paid the true cost of travelling,just like rail users, their "views" may change, but somehow I doubt it.
Freedom they cry at others expense.'"
Being able to get from Manchester to London an hour quicker than now will be of benifit to about 0.00001% of the people who travel down the M6 every day
Trains no longer work in this country , they are fine for shifting commuters into cities and shifting bulk materials , that's it |
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| Quote: GUBRATS "Being able to get from Manchester to London an hour quicker than now will be of benifit to about 0.00001% of the people who travel down the M6 every day
Trains no longer work in this country , they are fine for shifting commuters into cities and shifting bulk materials , that's it'"
its a good point. we are seeing increasing developments on the edges of major towns and cities - offices, shopping centres, stadia to name just 3, and these are typically connected by road first and foremost. rail connections if they exist at all tend to be on branch lines meaning travellers still have to change in city centre stations taking more time and effort. meadowhall is an exception to this rather than the rule - just look at how awkward it was to get to coventry by rail for the recent match for example |
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| Quote: the artist "its a good point. we are seeing increasing developments on the edges of major towns and cities - offices, shopping centres, stadia to name just 3, and these are typically connected by road first and foremost. rail connections if they exist at all tend to be on branch lines meaning travellers still have to change in city centre stations taking more time and effort. meadowhall is an exception to this rather than the rule - just look at how awkward it was to get to coventry by rail for the recent match for example'"
We used to have a very comprehensive network of rail connections, then Dr Beeching took an axe to it; now the rail network is next to useless to many commuters, so they take to the roads - and all the issues that come with that ensue, not least congestion and environmental impact. I have some sympathy with the poster who suggested that motorists don't pay the true cost of using the roads - but I'm not sure how you would levy that in any meaningful way, since we all use them to varying degrees and in a different way. As far as developers go - in terms of housing, retail, employment and leisure - the car is very definitely king, so if you can't afford one, you're screwed.
One thing's for sure - our transport infrastructure is at breaking point, so shaving some time off the journey to London seems, from a Northern perspective, more like a vanity project. |
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| Quote: "so shaving some time off the journey to London seems, from a Northern perspective'"
Have you ever considered that trains tend to go both ways? |
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Quote: Exiled down south "Have you ever considered that trains tend to go both ways?'"
Well of course. They have to come up to Leeds & other places to pick people up to take them to London haven't they?
This isn't a network being built, it's a line. A line running to London that will primarily benefit London. I get the Leeds to Kings Cross regularly (and the other way), at various times throughout the day. The train to KC from Leeds in a morning is rammed. The train coming in the opposite direction from KC to Leeds is nice & comfortable and a lot quieter.
Do a search on the Trainline website:
https://www.thetrainline.com/
Tomorrow, Leeds to KC departing at 8:17, £113. KC to Leeds departing at 8:35, £62.50.
Flip those to 5pm when people are returning back North and you see the same: 5:03pm to KC from Leeds, £113. Leeds to KC, 5:17pm, £62.50.
That's just one example. It's supply and demand. Yes, of course trains go both ways, but one journey is a lot busier than the other, and ultimately that's why we're saying the HS2 investment will predominantly benefit the city of London. The demand in people coming to Leeds may go up after HS2, but it'll be in proportion to demand also going up for people travelling to London. |
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Quote: Exiled down south "Have you ever considered that trains tend to go both ways?'"
Well of course. They have to come up to Leeds & other places to pick people up to take them to London haven't they?
This isn't a network being built, it's a line. A line running to London that will primarily benefit London. I get the Leeds to Kings Cross regularly (and the other way), at various times throughout the day. The train to KC from Leeds in a morning is rammed. The train coming in the opposite direction from KC to Leeds is nice & comfortable and a lot quieter.
Do a search on the Trainline website:
https://www.thetrainline.com/
Tomorrow, Leeds to KC departing at 8:17, £113. KC to Leeds departing at 8:35, £62.50.
Flip those to 5pm when people are returning back North and you see the same: 5:03pm to KC from Leeds, £113. Leeds to KC, 5:17pm, £62.50.
That's just one example. It's supply and demand. Yes, of course trains go both ways, but one journey is a lot busier than the other, and ultimately that's why we're saying the HS2 investment will predominantly benefit the city of London. The demand in people coming to Leeds may go up after HS2, but it'll be in proportion to demand also going up for people travelling to London. | |
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| Quote: "This isn't a network being built, it's a line. A line running to London that will primarily benefit London. I get the Leeds to Kings Cross regularly (and the other way), at various times throughout the day. The train to KC from Leeds in a morning is rammed. The train coming in the opposite direction from KC to Leeds is nice & comfortable and a lot quieter.'"
So eventually everyone from Leeds ends up in London.
Isn't the plan to develop the Northern powerhouse and as such get those lost people to come the other way and faster. Or is change not allowed? |
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| Quote: Exiled down south "So eventually everyone from Leeds ends up in London.
Isn't the plan to develop the Northern powerhouse and as such get those lost people to come the other way and faster. Or is change not allowed?'"
I've no idea what you're going on about now, or what point you're trying to make?
Northern Powerhouse plan? What plan?  |
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What HS 2 will achieve is becoming a rich persons commuter train , high flyers will be able to sell or rent their expensive London apartments and move further north working from home 3 days a week , just nipping into ' town ' for a couple of days
As I said earlier a minuscule % of those using the roads currently will ever step foot on a HS 2 train
What should happen is the government should reduce the cost of owning a car , but increase the cost of using it
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| Quote: GUBRATS "As I said earlier a minuscule % of those using the roads currently will ever step foot on a HS 2 train'"
In a rare moment of congruence, absolutely correct; using it once a year to travel from Leeds to London to gawk at some clocks and bridges is hardly sufficient justification for your average Northern Monkey to get all excited about HS2.
Your next point is nonsensical - the government should not do anything more to increase the cost of using a car; that's just further hammering the average joe trying to get to work. What they should do, is reduce the necessity of using the thing, by investing in a transport network that provides a viable alternative. |
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A suggestion given we've now voted to leave the EU , instead of repatriating foreign nationals can we instead send back all black Audi's imported into Britain , and their Moron drivers as well , this morning at 5 past 7 driving over Thelwall viaduct on the southbound M6 , in fog with overhead signs warning of roads being salted due to black ice , one of these complete d1ckheads past me at around 100 miles an hour , I'd also send back most of the Volkswagen golf drivers as well
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| Quote: GUBRATS "
What should happen is the government should reduce the cost of owning a car , but increase the cost of using it'"
The predicted future is that relatively few will chose to own a car - just hire by the hour. Already happening. |
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There was a letter in the IMechE newsletter that sums up my views; If I want to get to London 20 minutes earlier I'll get an earlier train, not spend £50billion.
That being said, we do need more trains. Richard Branson can't tweet images of free seats for all of us.
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| Quote: the cal train "There was a letter in the IMechE newsletter that sums up my views; If I want to get to London 20 minutes earlier I'll get an earlier train, not spend £50billion.
That being said, we do need more trains. Richard Branson can't tweet images of free seats for all of us.'"
Totally agree, or better still invest in the infrastructure here that will 'allow' me to leave home twenty minutes 'later' to get on the original train and by way of explanation it's not use cutting twenty minutes from in my case Piccadilly to Euston if the standard journey time from home to Piccadilly of say half an hour can't be relied upon and takes me an hour.
In short invest in the north, get it working and then link it up......possibly |
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